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ibaker:

Now, the major issue here is that I can be just as fast in a civic as I can with the CRX and yet the civic will weigh 150lbs less than the CRX. In STS/STS2 and CSP the reason the CRX's are faster is because they can get down to a lower min weight. Since SMF will be have to add ballast the theoretical min weight for each chassis goes out the window. As such, all that has happened here is that people will run the EF Civic rather than the CRX, and still have a built 1.6 making 200whp and weigh 1970.

Ian gets it!

To move away from the probably irrelevant Geo Metro 2/5 seater example:

 

So, if I have a Mini GP (2 seater), I add 150 lbs?  What if I ud/bd and add the rear seat from the Cooper S (4 seater)?  Do I still add 150 lbs since it originally came without a rear seat?

If I have a Cooper S and remove the rear seat as is allowed in SM, I assume I don't use the 150 lb penalty when computing my minimum weight, right?  What if I change to the BMW rear seat delete as ud/bd with the Mini GP and add red side view mirrors and ugly wheels?  Is it then a 2-seater Mini GP and thus required to add 150 lbs?

what if you have a CRX and you add the JDM rear seat?

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Matthew Leach

mleach:

what if you have a CRX and you add the JDM rear seat?

I couldn't think of a plausibly legal way to do it. You can ud/bd out of the divider, but I can't find an allowance I can torture enough to remove the stock storage compartment.  The ST and SP seat rules are written in such a way you can't add additional seats, either.

Hello,

Weight discussions aside, how will PAX be decided if SMF stands up in 2009?  Will they take the National SM results, strip away the AWD/RWD results, and then compare the FWD results to AM?  If so, would that mean a softer PAX for FSM compared to SM?

Thanks,

Scott

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98 Jetta TDI
Visit My Site to E-Mail Me

ibaker:

Rodney:

another data point for crx ballast: a csp crx with the 1.6 naturally aspirated will have to weigh 1970 (100+ over csp weights), before the added 150 lbs. i hate to use jose's car reference again, but would you rather be in a 2400lb rsx or a built 1.6 csp crx with 200whp that weighs 1970? again, easy choice. okie, add 150 and the 2120. still very competitive imho, but clearly not the overdog it would be at csp weight of ~1840.

First off, I agree with the ballasting of the CRX up to the 2200lbs range, this does equalize the field and makes it much more attractive to the newer cars. Now, the major issue here is that I can be just as fast in a civic as I can with the CRX and yet the civic will weigh 150lbs less than the CRX. In STS/STS2 and CSP the reason the CRX's are faster is because they can get down to a lower min weight. Since SMF will be have to add ballast the theoretical min weight for each chassis goes out the window. As such, all that has happened here is that people will run the EF Civic rather than the CRX, and still have a built 1.6 making 200whp and weigh 1970.

So, what needs to happen??? make the displacement multiplier lower (take it back to 125) and raise the min weight up to 2000lbs. Using this:

1. 1.6NA - 2200lbs (early stuff)
2. 1.6FI - 2375lbs (most FI civics, etc)
3. 2.0FI - 2425lbs (your supercharged RSX, SRT4, Cobalt SS, etc)

Thoughts?

Ian

 

--edit: on second thought, maybe a multiplier of 150 is a better compromise. The extra torque obtained by FI (especially on small motors) is a big benefit and I'm not sure 225lbs is enough of a spread from 1.6NA to 2.0FI, especially since most of the 2.0FI ars can run huge tires...
 

 

Ian,

Thanks for the insightful thoughts. Here's a couple more thoughts to consider.

At 125#/liter and 2000# base: 

1.6NA is 2200#
2.0NA is 2250#

Why on earth would you run a 1.6NA when you can have 25% more displacement for 50#?

 

At 150#/liter and 2000# base:

1.6NA is 2240#
2.0NA is 2300#

Still doesn't seem to make sense to run a 1.6NA motor.

 

I think this was the driving force behind going with the higher /liter numbers. There's a lot of ways to skin this cat. I think the SMAC is open to other constructive ideas. Keep 'em coming!

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Randy Noll

glagola1:

My only gripe with this class is it's mis-denomenation.  It should be called SMFXL.  :) 

 

mleach:

Clearly the people with the ideas were thinking: "How do we get all the guys with Street-cred to autox... I got it. Street-cred M$tha F$cka, that's what we will call the class. And thus, this moment of genius beget SMF. The official spokes person is Sammy Jackson.

Hmm, I was thinking a weight deduction for all blue cars instead...(SMurFs)

 

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Steve W.
ACR SRT-4

So is this proposal aimed at "slightly heavier FWD cars" or civics/crx's? Seems like a lot of the chatter in this thread is about civcs or crx's or other hella light cars. Can most of the modern FWD cars get down to the allowable minimum weights as currently proposed? Mini S = 2250lbs? Cobalt SS or turbo an RSX-S = 2330lbs? SRT-4 =2410lbs? Mazdaspeed3 = 2390lbs? (Note: I honestly don't know but it seems like a longshot to me. Everything typed hereafter in this post is assuming you can't on most cars...)

Or is the idea that to play in SMF, you need to take some lightweight older model and swap in a fancy new high powered engine? If we want the modern FWD cars to be able to compete then the minimum weights need to be attainable.

Maybe we could try solving this by going backwards? Look at all the popular heavy FWD cars. Guesstimate how light you can get each car to be in legal SM trim. Then figure out a multiplier/base weight that best allows those cars to hit their achievable minimum weights. This would probably hurt the civics and other light cars (ie. even out the playing field).

But if SMF is a class where it is assumed you'll be swapping/switching/turboing/supercharging a light honda, then ignore this post. :)

Just trying to think outside the Chicago Box.

Van 

 

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1986 Trueno GT-S (FSP)
Delivering tofu to an autocross near you.

I get the feeling that SMF is for people who haven't finished their SM build and don't want to spend the cash to play with the Evos (*cough* red... civic... hatch *cough*). 

As a RWD (2wd) SM competitor, the car I've been striving to beat just happens to be a (metal kneed) FWD B18C5 Civic.  Since the only times I've ever beaten it are when he's been sandbagging to make datapoints for SMF (blowing a clutch or "forgetting" hood pins at key moments), I'm not thoroughly convinced the class is necessary.

 [/sarcastic-somewhat-inside-joke]

On a serious note: It seems as though this class is going to cater towards cars that are typically dominant in STS/ STS2.  There are two paths to take in SM, in my opinion:
1.  Build the car to minimum weight possible and dominate by being nimble and driveable. (Think Lotus Elise)
2.  Offset size and weight with power and tires. (Think Z06)

Wasn't the big factor for SMF the inability for FWD cars to put down power?  If so, the big heavy cars can't make up for their "big heaviness" with power the same way RWD and AWD cars do.  I would think that it'd make for a "spec class" much like STS. 

Seriously, if you're going to ballast lighter cars to even out the playing field for newer cars, why stop there?  I'd think it'd be easier to just ballast the crap out of current SM cars and slow down SM as a class, rather than break it up into sub-classes in ways that turn SM from a healthy class to barely making 5 drivers (DC, Finger Lakes).

Hummm. I could see a nice swapped mirage with the 1.6L (4G61T) turbo motor fitting in nicely. The weight would be spot on at the 2250 LB neighborhood. Keep the turbo small for some quick spooling. Have power in the neighborhood of 250-275 HP. I'm watching this one with some interest.

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Mike Booth

94 Mazda Miata Black ES
95 Mitsu. Mirage Silver FSP

bmw88rider:

.. I'm watching this one with some interest.

 

instead of watching, write your letter and say you are for the class.... just watching will not get the class of the gorund. start ordering those parts....  

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Hi! I'm Rodney. "Hi Rodney!" I'm addicted to Solo....

I already wrote the letter and have everything but the short block and the intercooler in my garage. I have for a couple of years now. There just hasn't been a good reason to convert my FSP car to SM trim yet until this proposal came out. Most of the suspension to start would be a carry over from the FSP car with a few changes in spring rates and redoing of the brake system.  The only other major change to start will be going to the 275 hoosiers for some more traction. Then start fine tuning from there. I would need to probably add some weight though as I'm under 2000 LB in FSP trim. That should help balance the car out though. Trust me Rodney, I'm all for this and want the class.

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Mike Booth

94 Mazda Miata Black ES
95 Mitsu. Mirage Silver FSP

Suprised no one's mentioned Tovsen's Scirrocco.

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Patrick Washburn
Lucky Lugnut Racing
SoloPro Driving Schools
Red Eye Brewing Co

Mentioned, hell I'm dreaming of duplicating it.  But the problem is, as I understand the proposed SMF class, the minimum weight on a 1.9L forced induction VW would have to be 2310 lbs... which is INSANELY heavy for a Mk1 VW.  1700 range is more realistic.  Hell, I've heard some mention of the FSP 'roccos coming in at under 1700 lbs.

It gets a little better if you add a 250 lbs reduction for running less than 275 wide tires, but not much better.  I still think the K swapped Civic is the car to have if SMF exists, as no other car that light can make that kind of power from a naturally aspirated motor.

Having looked at SM rules as they stand for the first time in quite a while, I have to wonder if a booster VW on the 255 Hoosiers couldn't get it done in current SM, though.  Is anyone on the 255's yet?  (don't yell at me, I'm living overseas at the moment)

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http://www.emohn.net

After being beaten by 2 SM Civics this weekend ('grats to Chris & Chris!), I would say the lighter FWD cars definitely have a chance in current SM.  Basically, if SMF carries heavier weight restrictions, lighter cars shouldn't have a problem since they can just stay in SM (or ballast up if they choose). 

Patrick Washburn:

Suprised no one's mentioned Tovsen's Scirrocco.

i am trying to stay away from that topic as i am sure he is planning to punch me in the face next time he sees me..... him and janusz are the only ones that have campaigned recently with cars that will be majorly affected. 

his old min weight was 1900, which he easily made. then the current rules need him to weigh 1962, which is not bad, but the proposed ruling puts him at 2310... ');" mce_href="BLOCKED SCRIPTinsertSmiley('');" title="Zip it! - ">

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Hi! I'm Rodney. "Hi Rodney!" I'm addicted to Solo....