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I think the Air-cooled super vees would fall under the Formula Atlantic rules making it legal in B/M.

Stuart

TeamFRD:

Should I be concerned that air-cooled Formula Super Vees are no longer in the GCR?  They were removed a few years ago as a national FC class.  So, I have a car that for 20+ years was in the GCR but now it is  not.
There fore by rule, I should not run in B Modified but run in A Modified. 

I don't believe anyone would file a protest, etc.   I am completely out gunned as it is.  But would an event official care?

For conjecture  

I agree that your fellow BM competitors would probably do nothing except welcome you to the class.  The only time event officials would care would be at impound when they may weigh the car and then ask you for the legal weight.  You can run as an Atlantic.  If the motor is 1615cc or less then 1,110 pounds with driver or up to 3000cc at 1,285 pounds with driver.

An alternative would be to ask the MAC and SEB to run with the same weight as a FF2000 - 1,090 with driver.  This would require a rule change. 

Gentlemen,

Well, well, well, where do I start? 

Jesus, a reasonable question for one gone from the fold so long.

Jeff, I agree, larger 60-70 sec courses would be great, I am lobbying for same.  Present surface difficult, to say the least, but I lobbied Howard into promising a street sweeper /vacuum to suck the entire site before setup next year, and as much as possible between days/heats.  Obviously, tighter courses favor smaller cars, though both courses the last 2 years have had fast, exciting sections.  Ya'll do remember the first and last part of the east course and the back side of the west this year, don't you?  The average times for BM have been in the 40s for many years.  The present problem is a narrow line with invisible, slippery sand lurking inches away.....

Jim G., appreciate your interest, and calm, honest tone.  How refreshing!

Stuey, thanks, as always, for your support and efforts at untangling so much misinformation.  I foresee another great year ahead!

To all the new guys, welcome aboard to the best class in Solo! 

Time to cut to the chase.  F/A vs DSR.  Ralt vs Legrand.  BIG vs small.  In 1990, all SR were moved from CM to BM to make room for FF/S2000 class.  From 1990 till Stu and I enterred BM, F/A won 7, ASR won 5, DSR won 1......  Overwhelming dominance by the DSR, of course!

 Since Stuey and I enterred BM, no one in F/A has worked to improve their car, why I don't know.  Got tired, got bored, got complacent, got old, whatever.  Stuey and I were fired up, invigorated, had something to prove.  We worked VERY hard at improving a good car. And, as usual, Stuey forced me to drive VERY hard...  Results-predictable. 

I have always believed, and still maintain, that Stuey and I would have won in an F/A, ASR, CSR, or DSR with the same effort.  Every one else was just coasting or not yet up to speed.

Wide F/A (with tunnels!) or SR corners best.  Narrow SR (or F/A) slaloms best. Course dependent.  Example:  north course, 2004, segment time thru the fast sweeper, Domeck in Ralt 1 sec faster than Dragon.  South course, 2005, Swift F/A fastest time (cone/mechanical).

Power to weight:  F/A, ASR=4.0-4.5, DSR=5.5-6.

Aero:  F/A has very large and efficient tunnels plus large, though low, wings.  SR has flat bottom between axles, front and rear diffusers, inefficient front wings, effective rear wing, 8 SQ. ft. limit.  Advantage who?

GCR legal:  The SEB, in it's infinite wisdom, allowed Solo modifications to GCR legal cars, why I don't know.  Happened before I got here.  Nevertheless, my car is still GCR legal except for the roll bar and no fire bottle.  I would prefer all cars to be GCR legal, but I am losing that battle on the MAC.  Will keep trying, still have the GCR bar.....

Cost:  DSR wins hand down with M/C engine.  I spent $1500 and $1800 on Ebay for my 2 Yamahas, and they threw in a 6 speed sequential trans for free!  Very reliable, 150#, compact, 15000 RPM, 150 net hp.  Horsepower is not the problem, we all have enough.  Contrast Cosworth or built Toyota/VW at $15,000-$25,000 each, and fragile.  250-300hp.  Plus fragile Hewland, God knows how much to buy/fix! Rotary?  Besides being obnoxious, I have lost count on how many I have watched grenade...300-350hp.

Historical value:  My info shows 27 Mk 18 and 7 Mk 25 LeGrands produced, vs 30 something Ralts.  Who cares?  Not many of either.  All are now monumental losers on a road course these days.  If you want to make a Ralt narrower, no problem, fab some arms, put the others aside, and join the the LeGrand club of not handling but being a bullet in a slalom!  I am in the process of widening my car even more.  We can meet in the middle.  BTW, the original pieces are on the shelf....  

Sure wish I could sit in the middle and see over the fenders!  Damn, should have bought a Ralt!

Sure wish I could get to my tires and let them warm in the sun!  Damn, should have bought a Ralt! 

Sure wish I had tunnels!  Damn, should have bought a Ralt! 

 Too expensive, can't afford it, historical value and all.......

I almost went for a Swift F/A, but couldn't justify the additional cost.

Desperate times call for desperate measures:  In 04 I developed a crack in the rear subframe at Nats.  The answer was ANY port in a storm, had a 6 run (barely) patch applied, and had Kurtco from Janco fix it properly when we got home.    

I have always believed in the Lotus principle:  small, light, compact, efficient, cost effective.  The Dragon is all that, plus I like the way it looks, 60s CanAm car, and sounds, F1.

Whenever Greg and I go round on the MAC, I always say give me your car and I will make it a winner.  I still truly believe that.

The first year I got the Dragon, 03, I had the opportunity to drive Guy Ankeny's Ralt.  I was 2 sec faster than the owner and came close to my Dragon times, despite the almost undriveable car/driver interface.  Since then the Dragon has gotten faster and that Ralt has gotten slower (and less reliable) now the difference is approx 4-5 sec.  Sad.....

Despite what you may have read, and against all logic other than we happened to win, DSR WT was adjusted from 980 to 1020#.  REWARDS WEIGHT.  Maybe Stuey and I should buy a Swift F/A and get the F/A weight adjusted upward........

Or maybe one of YOU fast guys should do it!  Time, money, effort, desire.  How bad do you want it?  Stuey and I wanted it bad.  Could you tell?

One thing I always wondered:  why would anyone buy a Ralt to autocross in the first place?  Heavy, expensive, not pretty, etc.  If you just love the car, fine, but don't expect to win on that account.  But it did, many times, must have had some motivated drivers.....

Guys, I really think this is a great class.  I truly believe that the right F/A, F/B, F/C, ASR, CSR, or DSR can win with the right combination of time, money, effort, as it should be.  If there is something you think should be changed in the rules, write us a letter, the MAC will address it and if it makes any sense at all, we will pass it to the SEB .

The last few years has seen a changing of the guard.  The old farts are fading in BM, and the new farts are coming up to speed.  I can hardly wait.  The numbers will be there, in the meantime, come to Nationals and bring your friends!  Who wants to drive an IPSB (ask me when you see me for what that means.....) when you can drive a REAL race car! 

There have been a lot of questions, comments, opinions, exagerations, and a few looney tunes flying around.  All well and good.  Keep them coming (except for the looney stuff).  Some expert dinker out there should start us a BM web page. 

BTW:  The protest against me at 07 Nats was improperly filed, all points in the protest were denied, the question of how soon you have to stop after being impeded was invented by the PC, and the appeal Com could not rule in my favor due to the precedent it would set.  I would be glad to send the protest/results and appeal /results to any who are interested.  In any case, sincere congratulations to Evan and Jeff!  You guys better come back next year, and bring your friends!

There is too much twisted rhetoric in this thread to address it all.  Those that know me know the truth.  Those that have questions I invite to call me, I do much better on the phone or in person!

817-251-2519h

817-233-8277c 

Tommy

BM99/199 

stuartbmod:

Jesus,

 I would not be opposed to bigger wings for the FA's. I have run the Dragon with and without wings, they really do work.

B/Mod is struggling to meet the numbers, but I hope it will survive. I wish I knew what the answer is to bring in more people. F/M is a good entry level, my opinion, to a mod class, that or maybe C/M. C/M is a great class, I kind of miss it. The FF's are such a great and reliable car, I think people feel they are to expension, or too complicated, but they are really a good cheap way to have a ton of fun.

After driving Bowland's A/M at Nationals this year, I tell you that is a way cool car. I sure wish we had been at Forbes and not HPT. I do not blame you for not bringing the Ralt out, or even the Camaro. I hope the D/M Lotus is fun. I just think it would be fun to run against you again.

One of the best thing the B/Mod guys can do to help build the class up is to let some other people drive  their cars, maybe get themselves a full time co-driver. It has really worked well for me and Tommy. I may be the official tire warmer on our team, but I sure get to drive a very cool car. When Tommy and I teamed, we knew we would really push each other, and we have. Plus, you always have some good competition.

One last thing guys, get your tails to Topeka this September. Win, lose or draw, I assure you will have a great time. Where else can you get that many B/Mod's together.

 Stuart

Tommy,

You were the final deciding factor in me buying Perry's DSR. When we talked on the phone you said it was a wing and a diff away from a National level car. So far my son and I have enjoyed running it, developing it some, and we look forward to Nationals this year. Sounds like a great group of folks to hang out and race with. See you all in September, small slippery course or not.

On another note, looks like Hoosier has switched our tire sizes softest compound to the R25B. Anyone care to share any experiences with it vs. the R25A's?
 

Holy Cow!!!

 When talking on the phone with Tommy, he said he had replied on this subject. Anyone that knows Tommy knows he actually hates computers, so for him to spend so much time replying, wow!

Ok, enough ribbing him, what he said I will agree with 100%. No one has put any REAL effort into an F/A in recent years. A number of BM guys have been around a long time, I have seen these guys looking into the future and what they are seeing is old age and retirement. I am not picking on anyone, I ain't no youngster either. If my memory is right, Greg has been to all of the Nationals except two, he was at the very first one way back a long time ago. His fire probably burned out some years ago and that is ok.

To win in any competitive sport, it takes a real dedication. If a win in BM was easy, it would not mean anything. I am very proud of my 2005 win. Tommy has that dedication and it shows, he truly has a closet full of Championship jackets. Yes, I push him. Yes, I help him, but that credit goes to him, I am just along for the ride! As I stated earlier, in mod cars everyone really needs a full time co-driver. Two good drivers will push each other, improve the car, improve their driving, have someone to talk cars with while driving to and from the events, you get twice the imput on what the car is doing, two sets of eyes to catch each others screw ups (although we never screw up!!! LOL), plus it just makes the effort more fun, and the list goes on and on.

The cars in this class are so cool, how can we not have fun!

 See you guys in Topeka.

Stuart

We probably won't hear form Tommy for awhile untl he replaces all the keys he wore out on his PC with that last post.

Yup, air cooled 1600cc SuperVee fits in BM just fine.

Can run at pushrod 1615cc weight.

SCCA has GCR legal classes still for all the old as well as new stuff.

Just because you don't see the exact old class listing anymore doesn't mean it doen't fit into some  current GCR class.

Look at motor and rims and aero package to see where you fit in GCR.

In road racing, the GCR has been pretty carefully crafted  to not eliminate but to fold in the old stuff. 

FS and ASR are examples of catching all the extreme outliers.

If your old formula car or SR  has wheels and a motor and meets safety regulations, there is a GCR class for it and BM has a fair weight and aero rule for it.

Run to FA aero rules if it is openwheel, run to SR aero if you cover the wheels. Simple.

The beauty of current  BM rules now is are that they reduce the gobbygook of endless pages of carb/FI restrictions and various weight penalties vs matrixes of engine choices to just good old displacement vs weight for everybody. 

The BM breaks occur mostly at the historical GCR displacement limits to help reduce the need for new engine building challenges in BM.   

The only additional breakdown that  BM has is that the 1615cc pushrod motors get a break-as they should.

Chuck Voboril