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Wife's in labor, gotta go, but keep in mind the 128 is coming and it's specs are better than the 330 ZHP IMO and not far off the E36 M3.  Competition will get tougher in STX even if no action is taken, simply because the new 128 will offer more of a competitive threat.  Based on internet data, I compiled the below.  BMW files, correct as necessary...

I guess I'm missing why you think the 128 will be more competitive, do you think the 120lbs and 5 inches of length will be more important than the 22 lb-ft it loses to the ZHP?

Is the diff compatible with any M3 diff? 

Looks to me like the E36 M3 should still be better than both of them in STX trim.  

murph1379:

Is the diff compatible with any M3 diff?

 Does it matter, can't 2WDs use any diff they want? There was rumor that BMW was going to make a regular lsd available as a dealer option.

donour

Mooobunnny:

Also, have we seen enough well prepared and very well driven RX8's in STU to prove they cannot be competitive. I know the simple numbers of the car makes it seem to not be a good contender, but I personally so not feel we have seen enough of them to make any judgment on the situation.


Edit: There were ~27 different "boostbuggies" in STU and only 2 M3's and 1 RX8. I know there are reasons behind this, but the odds of having multiple M3's in STU trophies were MUCH lower than they have been in the past. I feel they do have a VERY tough fight on their hands with the AWD cars, but at the same time, I do not feel STX is the correct place for them.

 

More than one person has commented on the RX-8 in this thread, so let me add my two cents...

You haven't seen more RX-8s at the National level in STU because most sane people realize it would be bringing a knife to a howitzer battle. The RX-8 is an excellent Stock class car, because it is well balanced, has a very well designed suspension, excellent brakes, and can fit wide tires for such a moderate curb weight.

Unfortunately, these same attributes work against it as you step up to STU. There isn't nearly as much to be gained in the suspension as there is with a camber-limited Macstrut car, simply because you're starting from a much better place. Allowable STU engine mods net you very little usable power - maybe 20-25 peak whp way up at 9000 rpm, and maybe 15-20 lb-ft of torque at 7500 rpm. Maybe. And that's using every allowance under the rules.

The reality is that a prepped STU boost buggy is making significantly more torque at 2500 rpm than an RX-8 makes peak... and it can put it down that much sooner coming off a corner due to its drivetrain.

The only advantage an RX-8 has in STU trim is curb weight. For that 10-15% weight advantage, it makes roughly 40% of the peak torque and maybe 60% of the peak horsepower of a prepped boost buggy (and you have to rev the snot out of it to realize those numbers), has half the drive wheels, and one third of the differentials. Have any corner exits below about 40mph, and the RX-8 is toast. Run anywhere above sea level, the RX-8 is toast. At a ProSolo, the RX-8 is toast. Basically, unless the course just happens to be a 47-cone slalom, the RX-8 is toast.

To date we've seen one truly serious RX-8 at the National level. Let's look at that car and its driver for a second. Not only has Sipe trophied in the same model car in B Stock twice at Nationals (which suggests he's more than familiar with driving an RX-8), he's also got a big handful of Tour and Pro trophies in several other previous cars. People who have been around for a little while may remember that Sipe's success with the 3.0L Z4 was one of the prime reasons that car was moved to A Stock along with the S2000 for '05, even though he was really the only data point in that car at that time.

Sipe's RX-8 was built darn near to the limit of the STU ruleset (certainly as much if not more than any of the top boost buggies). He had literally tens of thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of development time in that car. All of that netted him several mediocre finishes at big events in STU. I look at the time, money, and talent that went into that car, and I can't honestly think of a more obvious data point that suggests the car is hopelessly outclassed in STU.

Another way to look at it - the boost buggies are faster in Stock than an RX-8 (A Stock versus B Stock), and they gain an order of magnitude more from the suspension and power modifications allowable in STU. Why on earth should the two cars be in the same ST class?
 

Chris Conant:

The e36 325/8 and E36 M3 are similar except the ///M3 has a bunch more horsepower. I feel it would certainly be a class killer.

With respect, it sounds like most of the folks on this forum disagree with your statement.  And, if you look at the data from the last two years, the M3's in STU wouldn't have been class killers in STX.

Chris Conant:

 

 Moving the E36///M3 makes the 325/8 and E30///M3s obsolete. So is it time for me to retire from SCCA Solo2?

The thing is, if the E36 M3 *isn't* better than the WRX (which most folks believe it is NOT), then the E36 M3 would just be another competitive car in the class.  If it happened to be better than the 325/8 or E30, then it would be the best Bimmer of the class, but not a class killer.

Jonathan Roberts

altiain:

Another way to look at it - the boost buggies are faster in Stock than an RX-8 (A Stock versus B Stock), and they gain an order of magnitude more from the suspension and power modifications allowable in STU. Why on earth should the two cars be in the same ST class?
 

I'm so glad someone brought this up.  I don't remember exactly which heats AS and STU ran this year.  But iirc, they were on the same Thursday/Friday schedule that BS ran.

Either way.  My results show the AS STi DOMINATING the STU version of the same car.  By the tune of 1.39 seconds.

Johnathon Roberts - 6th in AS Combined Time of 90.741

James Eric Paulson - 1st in STU Combined time of 92.131 

And just for fun. 

Jason Isley - do I even have to say Combined Time of 91.615

As Iain so expertly said, the RX-8 really cannot compete with the STi in stock or ST.

 I still like the previous mention earlier in the thread

DaveH:

Maybe the answer is to add an ST class.  The existing classes seem popular enough.  Add STM (Street Touring Mega  ), bump the rally cars there, leave the E36 and RX8 in STU, bump the WRX from STX to STU and leave STX and STS for the FWD's to play in.

altiain:

To date we've seen one truly serious RX-8 at the National level. Let's look at that car and its driver for a second. Not only has Sipe trophied in the same model car in B Stock twice at Nationals (which suggests he's more than familiar with driving an RX-8), he's also got a big handful of Tour and Pro trophies in several other previous cars. People who have been around for a little while may remember that Sipe's success with the 3.0L Z4 was one of the prime reasons that car was moved to A Stock along with the S2000 for '05, even though he was really the only data point in that car at that time.

Sipe's RX-8 was built darn near to the limit of the STU ruleset (certainly as much if not more than any of the top boost buggies). He had literally tens of thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of development time in that car. All of that netted him several mediocre finishes at big events in STU. I look at the time, money, and talent that went into that car, and I can't honestly think of a more obvious data point that suggests the car is hopelessly outclassed in STU.

very well said.  the only caveat i'll add is that mark made a spring change before nationals that badly hurt his handling so there's still a 'shoulda, coulda, woulda' argument to be made about the rx-8's true potential in STU, but there's no way someone's going to build a better STU rx-8.  mark built a beauty. 

altiain:

Another way to look at it - the boost buggies are faster in Stock than an RX-8 (A Stock versus B Stock), and they gain an order of magnitude more from the suspension and power modifications allowable in STU. Why on earth should the two cars be in the same ST class?

there's no arguing the rx-8 is outgunned in STU.  ask me how i know.   

reallybluegti:

So the WRX, with 50 HP AND AWD over the 325 isn't a class killer? 

Yes, that is correct, it is not a class killer

 So, a 330xi with 40hp and AWD should also be a lot faster than a 325 right? All of which can barely beat a 89' Civic on 195mm tires with half the power.

Mooobunnny:

reallybluegti:

So the WRX, with 50 HP AND AWD over the 325 isn't a class killer? 

Yes, that is correct, it is not a class killer

 So, a 330xi with 40hp and AWD should also be a lot faster than a 325 right? All of which can barely beat a 89' Civic on 195mm tires with half the power.

Wait, you forgot about weight.  The WRX is significantly lighter than the 330xi.  (Stock: 3483 lbs for the 330xi, 3085 For the WRX, thank you Google) A regular 330 is heavier than the E36 325/328, and the xi is heavier yet, thanks to BMW's heavy add-on AWD system.  An M3 and a WRX weigh about the same, and prepped have about the same HP.  The WRX has a real advantage with AWD, the M3 a theroretical advantage with the perfect weight balance.  In traction limited situations (and autocrossing on street tires is a CONSTANT traction-limited situation), AWD should win.  And, huh, the data seems to bear that out.

Oh, and the Civic weighs approximately nothing.  There's a reason real race cars are light.

I know, it was a rhetorical question.

I feel that Fenter showed everyone that a well prepared WRX, when driven VERY well, can be very fast. It shows the potential is there to be a class killer, but I do not feel they currently are. I am sure I will know a lot more about how I feel on that as this year goes on.
 

Mooobunnny:

I know, it was a rhetorical question.

 Sorry, wasn't sure. 

TypeR 801:

Wife's in labor, gotta go, but...

Wow!

Now there's a dedicated autocrosser!    "I have this emergency with a hormone laden woman...but I'll just send this one post..."

Congrats, Jeff,  and I hope the pizza came out of the oven ok.  

--Andy