SCCAForums.com

CosmosMpower:

mitchman:

If you read through the thread (only 3 pages) you see that they found out from his Mini contingency form.  (you submit them to the SCCA at NT or Pro events to receive contingency money from the manufactures)

 If you read my question I was quoting a Lotus Elise owner not Mini owner.  I drove an 06 Elise and was wondeirng how a fellow Elise owner had his warranty voided on the drivetrain due to autocross.

I'm sure Jerry will be along in a minute, but if I recall correctly, the dealer dumped the ECU and found a certain number of standing starts and a couple of redlines.  Then voided the warranty.  There was a long thread on this on Elisetalk.com.

---

Ted

2003 C5 AE Coupe AS
2004 Z16/Z06 SS

Thanks, I'm aware of the standing starts thing but you could easily redline your car at every light if you wanted so I don't think they have grounds on that.

---

-2006 Lotus Elise- SS
-2000 Honda S2000- AS
-2009 Mini Cooper S- GS

Sorry about the hijack, but this is related.  The short version is I had a 2-1 synchro issue from the day I bought the car.  Took it in, and apparently a handful of standing starts (3000 RPMs with spinage) combined with a cluster of revs over the ficticious 8500 RPM redline (I had tons around 8700, my car's REAL redline) meant abuse and a voided powertrain warranty.  I added a poll and found something like 75% of Elises had revs OVER 8500.  No matter, the rep said I must have missed a lot of shifts.  Righttttttt.  Me and everyone else.  Can you say B.S.?  The rep added that my autoxing was abuse and that they were flagging Elises that were autoxing when they found out about them.  F*ckers.   The good news is I'm not bitter. 

 Yes, ANY time on the track is much more abusive than a 45 second autocross run in 2nd gear.  The rep didn't get it.  He added that if they knew an Elise had been tracked, they'd watch it very carefully and a data dump might result in a warranty void on powertrain components.  Beware.   Good news-the Toyota lump is pretty much bulletproof.  And I traded that first Elise in on a Lexus after I got this new Elise.  The first one was subsequently totaled by some yahoo, so that is that.  Wait until they dump this ECU and see 200++ standing starts (Pro Solo, don't ya know).  :)   Best thing to do is assume you have no warranty on your powertrain. 

---

Jer
1993 MR2 #196 ES
2005 Lotus Elise (retired)
2002 diesel Ford Excursion 4X4 tow vehicle
1993 Miata (future LeMons car)
1987 Corolla Lemons car
1984 Citation Lemons car

This is a dealership issue, not MINI USA.  You always have to be careful in this regard. 

 A clutch isn't warrantied regardless.  That you do in fact race it precludes expecting them to address that kind of problem.  I'm surprised you even asked them to look at it.

When I broke the trans in the RX-8 at it's first ever event I just bought one at the salvage yard and replaced it myself.  A lot of people thought I should have taken it in.  I broke it racing, it's not Mazda's fault.

 The ECU recording issue is only going to get worse in this regard.  Manufacturers are in the business to just stay alive these days ...

---

"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how far you take the wall with you." --Anonymous

TeamRX8:

This is a dealership issue, not MINI USA.  You always have to be careful in this regard. 

 A clutch isn't warrantied regardless.  That you do in fact race it precludes expecting them to address that kind of problem.  I'm surprised you even asked them to look at it.

When I broke the trans in the RX-8 at it's first ever event I just bought one at the salvage yard and replaced it myself.  A lot of people thought I should have taken it in.  I broke it racing, it's not Mazda's fault.

 The ECU recording issue is only going to get worse in this regard.  Manufacturers are in the business to just stay alive these days ...

 

Why would autocrossing make my clutch pedal assembly squeak?  Also, the warranty was tagged as raced before I even had the clutch pedal assembly issue, actually 2 months ago when I was working in San Diego with my car nowhere near the dealership.  If it was my dealer, why did Mini USA actively/agressively send emails to my dealer negatively regarding my warranty issue.  While unfortunate, Its pretty much been confirmed this is a Mini USA issue at this point, whether it be 1 guy or 5000 guys(at the moment, I'm assuming its 1-2 guys).

I don't want to argue about this since its a pretty cut and dry issue, just surprised that you'd come on here and post what you did like I was doing something questionable when having them look at my car for a clutch pedal issue.  Also, thats great that you'd go to the junk yard and buy a new tranny  when you broke it racing, that was mighty big of you to do, Mazda probably would have gladly replaced the tranny for free.  If I break my car due to abuse, I'd do the same thing believe it or not and have done so(not in a Mini).  However, if I'm not abusing my car and simply driving down the road and something goes wrong with the engine and it has a catastrophic failure, right now, I'd be stuck with 100% of the bill.  Thats obviously not acceptable.

Also, this is not about 1 claim, whether you consider it questionable or not, this is about the larger picture that my car has been labeled as raced with instructions not to warranty anything mechanical that could be labeled as abused due to me autocrossing.  If I were to abuse my clutch and have it go out, sure, I'd expect to pay for it myself, I have never argued that, actually, I have never had a clutch fail in the 20 years that I've been driving manual transmissions, but, thats not really the issue here.


 

 

 

 

---

2006 GS National Champion
2007 GS National Champion....Runner up lol
2008 GS National Champion
2009 BSP National Champion....Runner up, lol again, although, not so funny lol

OK, back to being positive, hopefully we will get a positive resolution within a few days, I will update in a few days if/when I hear something, until then, hopefully only accurate info is posted. ;-)

Craig

 

---

2006 GS National Champion
2007 GS National Champion....Runner up lol
2008 GS National Champion
2009 BSP National Champion....Runner up, lol again, although, not so funny lol

"I was delighted to find that Vincent fully supported me and actually knew my name from the several contingency submissions I had made throughout the past season in various Mini's that I had competed in, none of which were my own besides the National Championship where I placed 2nd this season in GS.  He actually seemed very upset that this Jeff White was messing with me.  He also said that there was noone who had access to my contingency submissions, so, it wasn't something that came from the contingency submissions, it must have came from somewhere else.  "

... 

"This is what takes the cake though, my dealer calls me today and starts reading off contingency submissions emailed to him from Vincent K from Mini USA Motorsports division as proof that I raced my vehicle which they are now using to void my warranty on anything other than non-mechanical items."

So... even if they un-void your warranty, isn't this still a bit odd?

---

John W | 2003 WRX (#7 STX) | 1998 ///M3 |
Washington, DC Region

It appears Mini USA is on the way to correcting this issue, it appears it was due to the mis-guided actions of 1-2 individuals.  While this issue has been a major PITA for myself, hopefully it will help eliminate the possibility of this ever happening to any Mini owner in the future who might not have the resources of the internet which helped me get in touch with those who could help.......   I'll update when I hear something official, but, I think the issue is going to be corrected....  I'm just glad I won't have to think about this issue ever again it appears. ;-)

---

2006 GS National Champion
2007 GS National Champion....Runner up lol
2008 GS National Champion
2009 BSP National Champion....Runner up, lol again, although, not so funny lol

Craig:

Clearly this has been a learning experience for MINI. They are doing a review of who, why and how any car gets flagged as being outside the warranty because of abuse or participation in "competitive events". Thet are going to seek the input from a dealer group that is represented by 3 of the 5 dealers on the committee support autocrossers and full road race teams. Until that review and the process is better defined, the Marketing and Product side of the house will authorize legitimate warranty repairs to your car and any other car in a similar position. I think this hazy or gray area exists in all new car warranties and I'll be glad to see BMW/MINI be the leaders in setting clear guidelines for owners that want to use thier cars for more than just daily driving.

Now bolt on the A6's and go show'em why you bought it!

Brad Davis

MINI of Charleston

 

[hijack] I've read several comments in this thread stating that driving a vehicle on a track is far more stressful than autocross. Autocross is low speed and not damaging and so on. Aside from brake wear I say BS. How many cars on track do you hear riding the rev limiter because it would cost to much time to shift to 3rd? Why can I get almost 600 miles of track time out of a set of V710's and not more than 80 autocross miles. The abrupt starts, stops, and G forces applied during a autocross run far exceeds most of the forces applied on track. The only exception is the brakes due to lack of application time and slowing from lower speeds.

Autocross is a timed racing event and does place stresses on a vehicle it would not see for normal street driving.

On the other side I agree that cars advertised and sold as performance vehicles should withstand and be warranted for the stresses applied within reason.[/hijack]

SSCRacer:

 I think this hazy or gray area exists in all new car warranties and I'll be glad to see BMW/MINI be the leaders in setting clear guidelines for owners that want to use thier cars for more than just daily driving.

Brad, good move on Mini and BMWs part! The manufacturers have to address this. Everyone who competes with a Mini or a BMW is in effect advancing the marketing goals of the company. A clear policy must be established. It will be good for business and I'm sure other manufacturers will follow.

 

To Han Solo, sure autocross puts stress on a car it wouldn't see in daily driving. But autocross at the National level amounts to about 6 minutes of competition per weekend. Over the course of the season that's someplace around an hour, hour and a half of performance driving. That's not very much.

The tire wear in autocross vs. club racing and track events has been explained to be to be the result of incomplete heat cycling. The track car gets the rubber all warm and fuzzy throughout the entire carcas. Autocrossers only heat the outer surfaces.

---

Bryan S.
StL. Solo School Chair
91 Miata ES
2010 plans: few events on rock hard street tires to teach the 15 year old how to drive : )
04 Forester XT, 00 Golf, 08 Scott Speedster S30

Han Solo:

[hijack] Autocross is low speed and not damaging and so on. Aside from brake wear I say BS. How many cars on track do you hear riding the rev limiter because it would cost to much time to shift to 3rd? ... The abrupt starts, stops, and G forces applied during a autocross run far exceeds most of the forces applied on track. 

I guess you haven't ridden with me around town. I call the above:  "normal driving conditions."

---

Matt Murray

I am perfectly capable of learning from my mistakes. I will surely learn a great deal today.

I'm pretty sure Toyota wouldn't provide coverage on your Tundra if you were out in the desert driving it across railroad track bridges or avoiding large swinging I beams either.

Marketing is marketing.  What the warranty says is what the warranty says.  I suppose you could sue Mini and claim that the advertising for the car overrided what they explicitly say in the warranty, but I'll bet $100 you'll also lose.

This also isn't a case of "joe public" hitting a couple autocrosses... This is someone competing with the car on a national level and getting support from Mini directly to do so.  There's a paperwork trail WITHIN MINI USA that documents the warranty invalidation.

Don't get me wrong... I'd think it would be good for Mini to support autocrossers by continuing to honor the warranty.  But to claim they're "stabbing you in the back" when all they're doing is following what they've officially said they'll do is more than a little over the top to me.

Mark

 

 

Wow.  Your wrong on so many levels. I owned a 2000 Celica GT-S.  I had bolts break in the head just AFTER the warranty was up. Toyota knew of the problem and had a TSB on the issue. They knew my car was an autocross car, as I was in the TRD parts program and had my harness, SCCA SOLO rulebook and autocross stickers on the car, along with the usual STS modifications. I contacted Toyota directly to politely voice my displeasure of my car breaking just after the warranty. Toyota BACKED IT UP 100% and fixed it free of charge, and it would have been 1500-2000 or so.  So your wrong on the Toyota front. Also, why should MINI entice people to race their cars, only to turn around and yank warranties out from under people, especially when they are dealing with mostly very experienced car people who know that the vast majority of the problems they are experiencing are not caused by their autocrossing, but they tell the autocrosser that anyway and really dont give the customer their 'day in court' , so to speak. I have said this before about other companies that entice buyers with things like SCCA memberships, using competition cars in advertising, etc...only to void warranty claims based on bogus assumptions that it was cauised by autocrossing.......it is most likely a genius way to be able to throw unsuspecting car owners warranties, which aren't worth the paper they are printed on, in the sh|t can. Period. Looks like a  scam to me. Call me a crazy conspiracy theorist, but in some instances that is EXACTLY what this looks like. Entice a poor *** with a couple hundred bucks in contingency, then when something not even remotely related to autocrossing breaks, especially if its costs a couple thousand to fix, just arbitrarily shreds your warranty. Its the perfect sham. I say we use the national voice of a club like the SCCA and make sure enthusiasts of all disciplines know of these particular companies that are , if not defrauding, being very subversive and unethical in promoting the sporting aspects of their products.

---

Dominic Stone #77 2005 Dodge SRT-4 ACR >:) -- G-Stock

Oregon Region Chief of Safety
myspace.com/vvt4me

vvt4me:

Toyota BACKED IT UP 100% and fixed it free of charge, and it would have been 1500-2000 or so.  So your wrong on the Toyota front.

 

Big overstatement there Dominic.  Lift bolts breaking costing $1500-$2k to be fixed.  Come on.  It's parts worth $2 at dealer prices and the labor is about 3-4 hours, even if they have to pull the cams to fish out the broken pieces. - AB

---

'10 ProSolo Car TBD
'08 Z51 Corvette - SS #27
'06 Chrysler Crossfire - DS #87(retired in '08)
'04 RX-8 BS #87 (retired in '07)
'01 Celica GTS STS #193 (retired in '05)

B1mmer:

vvt4me:

Toyota BACKED IT UP 100% and fixed it free of charge, and it would have been 1500-2000 or so.  So your wrong on the Toyota front.

 

Big overstatement there Dominic.  Lift bolts breaking costing $1500-$2k to be fixed.  Come on.  It's parts worth $2 at dealer prices and the labor is about 3-4 hours, even if they have to pull the cams to fish out the broken pieces. - AB

And I don't think there actually is a TSB, even though there probably should have been.  As one of the first people who verified that the bolts were broken and they were causing the problems I had to fight tooth and nail to get Toyota to fix my car even though it was still under warranty at the time.  My experience with that car while it was under warranty and Toyota, both the local dealers and the national office, being unwilling to acknowledge or fix the problem made me decide to never purchase another Toyota product again.