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Sphinx:

Can someone explain to me how the MX-5 MSR is a good deal?  At $7600 for the package, that's a hell of a price and pushes the car near GXP territory.  And for the Z0K (on the base or GXP), that's a much better deal for the same performance.  Thoughts?

Honestly, this is all pushing me towards GXP Z0K (as long as I can get one without making a pilgrimage to Pennsylvania).

 Any other options for fast cars that are close to the 30 MPG (or better range)?

The $7600 is the price to put the package on the car at the factory.  There is a much better deal if you a) join Mazdaspeed Motorsports and b) order the upgrade parts from them and install them yourself. I believe that by being a member of Mazdaspeed you get a big discount on the price of the car too. 

The 2008 GXP Z0K can be ordered directly from any dealer - no need to trek up to PA not that there is anything wrong with PA. 

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Rob Leone

'07 Solstice GXP in AS
'87 Toyota Corolla in EP
ex - '91 MR2 Turbo in SM2 <- If you can't set a good example, serve as a horrible warning.

That's the thing I don't understand.  (And I'm a member of the Mazda support program already).  $7600 for a factory suspension package has to be the most expensive suspension option offered by just about any manufacturer.

 And you're right, nothing wrong w/ PA.  :)  It's the drive up to there that I would want to avoid.

The speculation is that Mazda wants to discourage people from ordering the car with the MS-R package from the factory, and instead encourage people to retrofit the parts.  Makes sense since it probably throws a wrench into their production line whenever they have to build an MS-R.

Viewed purely on a speed-per-dollar basis, yes, either Solstice is probably a better deal than the Miata MS-R.  But speed-per-dollar usually isn't the only factor considered, otherwise we'd all be driving A Stock C4 Corvettes or F Stock late-eighties Camaros.    Personally I'd pick the MS-R over the (base) Solstice myself, both because I suspect it'll be faster, and also because I want my daily driver to have a trunk.

PedalFaster:

Personally I'd pick the MS-R over the (base) Solstice myself, both because I suspect it'll be faster, and also because I want my daily driver to have a trunk.

 It does make a great daily driver

Top down in 2 seconds the trunk is actually bigger than an NB
 

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Mark Hirt
2007 MX-5 MS-R
Bowman Race Kart - rented
Webmaster Chicago Region SCCA

Mark Hirt:

Top down in 2 seconds the trunk is actually bigger than an NB

 

You have...  a trunk?!?! ?    

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Rob Leone

'07 Solstice GXP in AS
'87 Toyota Corolla in EP
ex - '91 MR2 Turbo in SM2 <- If you can't set a good example, serve as a horrible warning.

SpyderVenom:

 You have...  a trunk?!?! ?    

Yep and it's the same size top up or down

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Mark Hirt
2007 MX-5 MS-R
Bowman Race Kart - rented
Webmaster Chicago Region SCCA

PedalFaster:

The speculation is that Mazda wants to discourage people from ordering the car with the MS-R package from the factory, and instead encourage people to retrofit the parts.  Makes sense since it probably throws a wrench into their production line whenever they have to build an MS-R.

I really hope that's not their intent.  For club racing purposes, cars cannot be retrofitted, period, end of story. (I'll tell you that I know for a fact that it happens all the time, esp. in the days of t-top camaros/firebirds that magically got solid roofs).  So, if they are taking that approach, then Mazda deserved to be punted from the run-offs.

To say that a person cannot stick to the GCR without spending a $7600 for a $2000 package is outright nuts.

Obviously, trunk packages are different.

Please do not buy the MS-R, they are going to be extra-super-slow and expensive! 

You should be able to get the whole kit, including wheels, from Mazda for around $5,000.  The wheels are priced at around $300 a wheel, so go with a cheaper, lighter aftermarket wheel and save some cash.  You could also not opt for the shocks and go custom valved... but we had the as delivered shocks from Mazda on the car at Nationals.  We were also on the first alignment we tried (Thanks Mark and Erik for the starting point!) with only one event in the car before taking the car out to Kansas. 

Great input everyone.  Thanks.  As the purpose of this inquiry was to select the car (i.e. if you could choose ONE car from each class) that would provide the BEST chance for success in winning a National Championship, my latest take:

SS:  GT3

AS:  GXP

BS:  RX8

CS:  MX5-MSR

DS:  Integra R

ES:  MR2

FS:  Shelby

GS:  Mini S

HS:  Mazda 3

I realize that while others might be close (i.e. C5 Z06), the "horseshoes and handgrenades" approach is not what I'm looking for.  I personally would like to run the 993 again, but Lynne is tired of racing an underdog where one has to hope for either the right course or the right weather.

Can anyone seriously argue against any of these?

Paul

AStocker:

Can anyone seriously argue against any of these?

I feel funny trying to sell you on the 968 for B Stock given that I bought your car, but I really think it's the best car for the class; Jason did too, at least back in the day*.  After we got the car running V710s on all four corners in 2005, Ron was undefeated until the end of the season, usually winning by very healthy margins.  Ron of course didn't get it done at the Pro Finale or Nationals, but in hindsight I attribute that to the extra concrete grip exacerbating the wheelspin problem we hadn't seriously tried to fix.

Stick the Stock-legal clutch-type diff in a 968 and run equal-sized tires on all four corners, and I think the car would be unstoppable in B Stock.  If I had the money for a dedicated autocross car, I'd buy another 968 in a heartbeat.  I should note that I've driven several well set up RX-8s, so I know the competition.

* Jason, your drive in what's now Carl's 968 wasn't representative for two reasons.  Firstly, a huge front bar really helps the car's responsiveness, but to my knowledge Carl never put one back onto the car.  Secondly, the 968 has a really slow steering ratio; you learn to compensate, but the car feels like a pig until you do since it doesn't turn as much as you'd expect for a given wheel movement.

Paul,

I'll go with Sammy's response about HS - Why?

I bought my Mazda to commute into Boston and to autocross.  I chose it because it combined the fuel mileage needs (700 miles per week of travel) with autocross competitiveness.  For an underpowered HS car (isn't that an oxymoron?) it is fun and it certainly fits my needs.

But, if I were looking at an autocross specific car, the 3 (or HS for that matter) would not be on the list.  After so many years of RWD, I got too used to the throttle being part of the steering mechanism.

That being said, I hope you guys do get one, the additional competition would be great. (Assuming Matt stays in the 318.  I know Chang is not staying in HS)

Paul Zahornasky

I understand what you are asking, but in many of those cases there just isn't a car to have IMHO. 

 Nobody can argue that the depth of talent in GT3's is pretty deep, and deeper than the total depth of talent in either a Z06 or an Elise. So of course they'll rise to the top, but you have other cars in there as well with some equally proven drivers (but overall less of them).

 The GXP is fast, but IMHO has a gearing issue, and an S2000 won. 

The 350Z can't be considered slow, the best data point is Carter being 2nd last year .1 out in a Z, and 3rd this year somewhat further out in the "car to have RX8".  Well within the realm of "doesn't matter, each car can win".

CS:  Won, again, by an old Miata.  What makes the new car the car to have?  A Solstice dominated last year too.  I'd not pick the old Miata, I'd go Solstice myself, but being *ahem* large, I want the torque and the tire.  :)

 DS:  Hard to argue with the Type R, assuming something else doesn't move into the neighborhood.

 ES:  I think MR2 is overall the best car, but Brian Johns has been consistently quick and did win this year.  Again though, it's a torque and power thing vs. a more momentum thing

FS:  Ok, the Shelby is a must have.    But I know your car has a trashed diff.  Even still, I know it might be time to do something different, and you can't find Aussie diffs forever.  Only debate really is how much faster with a fresh diff, and that's going to be hard to find out without getting one, and when that one is done, what then? 

GS:  God knows, don't pay that much attenion.  :)

HS:  Mazda 3, 2.3 Focus, RSX would be stout I'd think.  I'd be looking RSX simply because I think they have crash bolts, not sure the others do.  And 160 HP is pretty good for HS car.  Of course you could by a BMW, Matt might even let you test drive his, but I have to wonder how long it'll be good for being 123 HP or so.   

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Sam Strano
Owner--Strano Performance Parts
800-729-1831

P-Z:

For an underpowered HS car (isn't that an oxymoron?) it is fun and it certainly fits my needs.

Paul Zahornasky

 Actually, I think the word you were looking for is "redundant", not oxymoron...   ;)

 

Bret

64ES

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64ES
5th highest total number of cones hit at 2007 Nationals. Sorry workers!

I went and looked at the last of the RSX's and thought it was going to be pretty good for HS and almost bought one and then the ZOK Solstice came along.

FM 

I'll say this in a way that may be too hard on myself. If a hack like me can beat some of the people I've beaten in mine, in a car with only 710's and an alignment, the RSX WILL be a great HS car if someone with more money and talent develops one.

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Scott Hoffman

HS '06 Acura RSX

Sphinx:

 

And you're right, nothing wrong w/ PA.  :)  It's the drive up to there that I would want to avoid.

Oh, there's plenty wrong with PA.  Don't kid yourself. 

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Jer
#196 ES
#187 SS retired

Hi Sammy,

"Nobody can argue that the depth of talent in GT3's is pretty deep, and deeper than the total depth of talent in either a Z06 or an Elise. So of course they'll rise to the top, but you have other cars in there as well with some equally proven drivers (but overall less of them)."

Pretty obvious that if you had a choice (and the means), the GT3 is the way to go.

"The GXP is fast, but IMHO has a gearing issue, and an S2000 won."

Any 'new' (Z0K package) car that is that competitive that fast gets my vote (the S2000's have gearing issues also).

"The 350Z can't be considered slow, the best data point is Carter being 2nd last year .1 out in a Z, and 3rd this year somewhat further out in the "car to have RX8".  Well within the realm of "doesn't matter, each car can win"."

You might have a point here, but that same data point shows Carter bailing on the car for a RX8.

"CS:  Won, again, by an old Miata.  What makes the new car the car to have?  A Solstice dominated last year too.  I'd not pick the old Miata, I'd go Solstice myself, but being *ahem* large, I want the torque and the tire.  :)"

Again, any new car (undeveloped) that is that competitive that fast gets my vote.  FWIW, I have that same 'large' problem too when it comes to low hp cars.

"DS:  Hard to argue with the Type R, assuming something else doesn't move into the neighborhood."

"GS:  God knows, don't pay that much attention.  :)"

I guess if the Mini S moves, both these classes get confused real quickly.

"ES:  I think MR2 is overall the best car, but Brian Johns has been consistently quick and did win this year.  Again though, it's a torque and power thing vs. a more momentum thing."

Agreed.

"FS:  Ok, the Shelby is a must have.    But I know your car has a trashed diff.  Even still, I know it might be time to do something different, and you can't find Aussie diffs forever.  Only debate really is how much faster with a fresh diff, and that's going to be hard to find out without getting one, and when that one is done, what then?"

The IROC is officially retired, and if I can talk Lynne into it, hopefully for sale.

"HS:  Mazda 3, 2.3 Focus, RSX would be stout I'd think.  I'd be looking RSX simply because I think they have crash bolts, not sure the others do.  And 160 HP is pretty good for HS car.  Of course you could by a BMW, Matt might even let you test drive his, but I have to wonder how long it'll be good for being 123 HP or so."

I guess the case can be made for multiple competitive cars.

We did our front wheel drive penance in the Neons for 3 years so D, G, and H stock wouldn't be all that new, but I've got to believe heavy drivers have a real handicap with low horsepower cars.  Looks like we're stuck with rear wheel drive, higher horsepower choices.  Bummer... 

What to do?

Paul  

 

You need a Black ESP Mustang.  :)

 Or a Shelby.

Marcus

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Marcus
ESP 89
FS 89 for this year
www.margravemotorsports.com

***We did our front wheel drive penance in the Neons for 3 years so D, G, and H stock wouldn't be all that new, but I've got to believe heavy drivers have a real handicap with low horsepower cars. Looks like we're stuck with rear wheel drive, higher horsepower choices. Bummer... What to do? Paul *** 

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T3 S2000
E46 M3 OLOA Project

AStocker:

Hi Sammy,

Pretty obvious that if you had a choice (and the means), the GT3 is the way to go.

Any 'new' (Z0K package) car that is that competitive that fast gets my vote (the S2000's have gearing issues also).

You might have a point here, but that same data point shows Carter bailing on the car for a RX8.

Again, any new car (undeveloped) that is that competitive that fast gets my vote.  FWIW, I have that same 'large' problem too when it comes to low hp cars.

The IROC is officially retired, and if I can talk Lynne into it, hopefully for sale.

Looks like we're stuck with rear wheel drive, higher horsepower choices.  Bummer... 

What to do?

Paul  

 If you have the means for a GT3, I'm available for adoption (my parents would understand). 

Carter did switch, but I don't believe it was completely becaue the Nissan wasn't fast enough, and either way he was fast.  Just seeming faster in the Z, but I wouldn't say he was no good in the RX8 either.  I think it's literally a case of two competitive, but different, cars. RX8 have no torque, FWIW.

The ZOK I drove in AS was a great driving car, but the gearing is more of an issue than you'd think.  Shorter than any S2000, not even 60 mph and when you accelerate quickly that's a bigger issue than say in an ES MR2 with it's short gearing.  (Sorry about putting BS ahead of AS....  my brain went faster than my fingers).

 CS.  I don't think the Miata sucks, I just spoke to Darrin about what was going on with it trying to make it turn, Seems a little off optimal, but I'm sure would be fast.

FS:  We'll miss you, maybe we can just get you guys to get an new FS car.  We're friendly, fun and the cars are a blast.  Alternatively, we could make the IROC an ESP car (for less than a new car of any sort costs). 

 You're in the same boat we were last year.  Power, RWD, and fun.  We had the field down to Z06, 350Z, Mustang.... 

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Sam Strano
Owner--Strano Performance Parts
800-729-1831