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thunderbird:

Well I doubt that they would move the 300 Hp car just because the newer model makes 700 HP.  BSP is stuck with us.   If you really think your old C4 or Beemer has no chance,  sell the pig off and put your money down on an Evo 9 MR or an STi or the mazdaspeed miata and see if you can keep up with Tom or Grice.  I know you won't get the street respect that one garners behind the wheel of a corvette or beemer,  but teenage kids will think you're cool driving your kid's car.

Or you're stuck with BSP! It would be much easier to discuss this issue if it weren't taken personally. My argument is with the SCCA for putting AWD cars in the same class as 2WD cars not with you as an individual or your car or your performance as a driver. I don't like the speed limits on the Interstates but I don't blame the other drivers or their cars, my gripe is with the body governing and posting the speed limits. Our car, as was Joel's, was a bit out of sorts this past weekend. At a prior event our (automatic) transmission and differential were lunched and we replaced the rear axle rotor to rotor. We got the car back on the Wednesday prior to the event and eyeballed the rear alignment. Additionally we went from a Dana 36 to a 44 which weighs considerably more and it disrupted the balance of the car which caused us a bit of an over steer problem. These are facts, not a whine or an excuse; it's our fault for showing up under prepared. With the issues we had I'm not that disappointed with my son's times. FYI, the last time we were on a dyno we had ~300 HP at the back wheels, a manual transmission would most likely be between 320 and 330 HP. The reason I mention this is that I have heard some outrageous speculation as to HP for BSP Corvettes.

We're not afraid to compete against AWD. From time to time we even compete successfully against AWD cars. At this past Dixie Tour event my son was 15th in PAX. Only one AWD driver out PAXed him and beat his raw time, George Bonafede in SM. Does this mean we "kick ass" on a regular basis? NO, but every once in a while the stars line up properly and we get lucky. I have an (AWD) friend that describes it as "... even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while..." Do I get beat? You bet, and most of the time I get beat by a guy running a 1972 911 Porsche. I sure wish he would get rid of that ancient piece of #$^^&*(!!! I've been trying to get him to by an AWD car. Maybe we can get rear engine cars moved from BSP!

I'll tell you what; if you hug a Corvette at your next event I'll hug an AWD. I won't hug anybody from the SCCA though until they resolve this issue to my liking!

spaf:

A full-tilt MS Miata will be no where near "450lbs+" a NA/NB CSP Miata.  More like 250-300ish...  But yes, the gearing is a major disadvantage.  CSP is arguably the fastest SP class...

Since this is a BSP discussion...I've read the numbers are in the 1870lb range for the top CSP miata.  A local BSP miata weighs in at the high 2400lb range. Seats, flywheel, speaker removal, ac removal, lightened rotors and wheels. Add in a larger more efficient intercooler, maybe I'm off...but not by much.
 

Still arguing over this???? wow.....one of many reasons I sold my BSP STi.....Gas being another...I since have moved on to a more local FSP entry...

Bill 

Scooby South:

Still arguing over this???? wow.....one of many reasons I sold my BSP STi.....Gas being another...I since have moved on to a more local FSP entry...

Bill

Someone else campaigning a '99 OBS in FSP... cool ;-)

-N 

ewesch:

I won't hug anybody from the SCCA though until they resolve this issue to my liking!

we all have to compromise and live within the rules.  Just as sometimes the stars don't align with us,  sometimes the rules don't work in our favor.  I perceive that the SCCA rules are full of  compromise and trying to make the best fit for the largest number of people.  They obviously often fail to resolve issues to everyone's liking.  Quite frankly,  as many C4s as there are,  maybe they should have a spec class.  I'm hope you can find it in your heart to forgive the volunteers that manage the SOLO rules even if the managing body doesn't resolve this to our liking.  

jeffh:

spaf:

A full-tilt MS Miata will be no where near "450lbs+" a NA/NB CSP Miata.  More like 250-300ish...  But yes, the gearing is a major disadvantage.  CSP is arguably the fastest SP class...

Since this is a BSP discussion...I've read the numbers are in the 1870lb range for the top CSP miata.  A local BSP miata weighs in at the high 2400lb range. Seats, flywheel, speaker removal, ac removal, lightened rotors and wheels. Add in a larger more efficient intercooler, maybe I'm off...but not by much.
 

At nationals the winning (1st and 2nd) CSP Miata was 2000lbs.  The BSP MS Miata was 2375, with stock seats, stereo system, heavy wheels and not a whole lot of development...

I can see how a Miata would do well on those courses, particularly the Saturday course.  Small cars were very well rewarded through two very tight slaloms / chutes.  Also, not to take anything away from any of the competitors, but I don't know any of them except Chris Carris, who usually drives an A Stock STi.  He's fast in the STi, but the Evo may be new to him and he was very close despite not having much experience in the car. 

Whatever the Mazda got on Saturday, it lost on Sunday.  I think their 2nd gear is even slower than the Solstice's, which is one of the reasons I was slower vs. nearly the entire field on day 2.  I had to shift to 3rd three times on Sunday's course, and in both cases where I had to shift back to second, there was no good place to do it.  Thank god they can't put anything that wide open in Topeka...

Steve Hoelscher:

Must have been a miss-print.  The Devens Tour results show a Miata winning BSP, ahead of Evos .

The Miata is well set-up and they are between gears on small local courses so I'm sure they were well into third in Devons. 

DaveH:

Whatever the Mazda got on Saturday, it lost on Sunday.  I think their 2nd gear is even slower than the Solstice's, which is one of the reasons I was slower vs. nearly the entire field on day 2.  I had to shift to 3rd three times on Sunday's course, and in both cases where I had to shift back to second, there was no good place to do it.  Thank god they can't put anything that wide open in Topeka...

Last year's East course was pretty close to as wide open.  I can think of two, maybe three sections where a GXP would have had to shift.  And there was nothing on that 2007 east course which was as tight as the bent slalom about 3/4 of the way through Sunday's Devens course.

John V:

DaveH:

Whatever the Mazda got on Saturday, it lost on Sunday.  I think their 2nd gear is even slower than the Solstice's, which is one of the reasons I was slower vs. nearly the entire field on day 2.  I had to shift to 3rd three times on Sunday's course, and in both cases where I had to shift back to second, there was no good place to do it.  Thank god they can't put anything that wide open in Topeka...

Last year's East course was pretty close to as wide open.  I can think of two, maybe three sections where a GXP would have had to shift.  And there was nothing on that 2007 east course which was as tight as the bent slalom about 3/4 of the way through Sunday's Devens course.

 

John, as you know - Dave and I were at the Naitonals and although we were not the fastest guys there we didn't have to shift to third in the GXP.  On the east course, we/I hit the limiter coming out of the "Toledo Express Airport" section and then through the finish.  Only running through the finish required a shift.  The west course required one shift up through the "Cone 405 from Outer Space"

SpyderVenom:

John, as you know - Dave and I were at the Naitonals and although we were not the fastest guys there we didn't have to shift to third in the GXP.  On the east course, we/I hit the limiter coming out of the "Toledo Express Airport" section and then through the finish.  Only running through the finish required a shift.  The west course required one shift up through the "Cone 405 from Outer Space"

 Actually I didn't remember that Dave was there.  I'm surprised you didn't have to shift in the slalom right after the start, because we were getting up in revs in that section.  Same thing with after the 180 degree turn.  We banged the limiter (70MPH) in the finish section.

John V:

SpyderVenom:

John, as you know - Dave and I were at the Naitonals and although we were not the fastest guys there we didn't have to shift to third in the GXP.  On the east course, we/I hit the limiter coming out of the "Toledo Express Airport" section and then through the finish.  Only running through the finish required a shift.  The west course required one shift up through the "Cone 405 from Outer Space"

 Actually I didn't remember that Dave was there.  I'm surprised you didn't have to shift in the slalom right after the start, because we were getting up in revs in that section.  Same thing with after the 180 degree turn.  We banged the limiter (70MPH) in the finish section.

Our lack of shifting may have been due to other issues.  I've heard that they issued tornado warnings as far away as Kansas City based solely on the sound of our sucking.

John V:

I can see how a Miata would do well on those courses, particularly the Saturday course.  Small cars were very well rewarded through two very tight slaloms / chutes.  Also, not to take anything away from any of the competitors, but I don't know any of them except Chris Carris, who usually drives an A Stock STi.  He's fast in the STi, but the Evo may be new to him and he was very close despite not having much experience in the car. 

 The 97/197 evo in bsp (also 97 SM) is my car.  Chris had only 1 run in the car prior to the tour and Dan had a couple of events.  We started the event on 40ish run hoosiers.  If you look at the 2nd place car in SM (me) you'll see my combined time is lower than Don's.  Don's got probably a mid prepped (coilovers, tune) car on narrow hoosiers, albeit fresh.  Don's a very good driver who doesn't venture onto the National scene much and it was no fluke that he did well.  He dropped a huge margin on his last run FTW and he commented to me that there was not much left for him.  OTOH, Chris and I both feel we left at least 1/2 sec out there on Sun, I won't comment on Sat.  I know my last run was a safety to try and collect a tire.

I'll have video up of the evo on our blog tonight or tomorrow.  www.holunfie.blogspot.com

John

 Edit: I forgot to add that DSP was also very fast and I still think, at least on a grippy surface, that the E36 M3 has a shot.  I have been running locally with these DSP bimmers (Alex, Mike and Chris) and they are always difficult to catch.  Typically I've got around 6-7 tenths on them.

So what's everybody's thought on placing the 240z, 260z, 280z, 280zx(all) on the same line.

This would allow the 240z/260z/280z run the turbo motor. My first feeling is that this would not upset the class and might bring more diversity to BSP.

OTOH it could be another also ran.

DrJones_CMR:

So what's everybody's thought on placing the 240z, 260z, 280z, 280zx(all) on the same line.

This would allow the 240z/260z/280z run the turbo motor. My first feeling is that this would not upset the class and might bring more diversity to BSP.

OTOH it could be another also ran.

Put them in DSP, but do not include the '81-'83 Turbo on the list.  Make the line ready "'70-'83 Datsun Z/ZX non-Turbo" ...

leepic:

DrJones_CMR:

So what's everybody's thought on placing the 240z, 260z, 280z, 280zx(all) on the same line.

This would allow the 240z/260z/280z run the turbo motor. My first feeling is that this would not upset the class and might bring more diversity to BSP.

OTOH it could be another also ran.

Put them in DSP, but do not include the '81-'83 Turbo on the list.  Make the line ready "'70-'83 Datsun Z/ZX non-Turbo" ...

This counter-proposal sounds like more "get rid of the competition in BSP".     But look at history.  240Zs were a good car in the class as I understand it in the 70s and 80s,  but are an even older car than C4s.  What would the class look like if a turbo'd 240Z dominated the class?  Where would the C4s and M3s go to play then?  I don't know that its helpful to class diversity to make the  older 240Z more dominant.

I'm not sure the 240z w/a Turbo 280ZX would dominate the class. it has mac-struts and limited camber adjustment (not to many SP legal camber plates as most cut the top of the tower out and weld in the plate).

And like you said, it's an old car that not to many people will bother with. if anything it'll give people who have made the swap a place to play without having to go to SM2.

But i'm sure i'm biased on this cause i've always had a soft spot for the Datsun Z cars.

I love the Z cars too, but the newest one was made in, what, 1983?  Philosophically that sounds like Prepared class territory to me.  How many Datsuns are still out there wanting to come back to SP?  Even as recently as 2001 the answer is:  not many.