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I don’t have an account on the NASIOC Forum so I would like to reply to Karen’s post (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1519051&page=5) on that forum here since it involves the BSP and AWD issue. Hi Karen…

First off, the BSP Corvette didn’t “bail” at the event. I registered for BSP only after emailing Nancy Downing about the ability to change classes at the event owing to the so surprising lack of interest in BSP. The day prior to leaving for the Atlanta Tour we received notification that the SPAC decided to leave the STI and Evo in BSP. At that time, prior to leaving, the decision to boycott the class (as did the other Corvette that registered for SM2) and move to SM2 was made. When I saw Joel at the event I spoke with him about his registration in XP and initially we both decided to run in BSP but later I decided to stick to my original decision and move to SM2 which I advised Joel of an hour or so after our initial conversation. This was not a spur of the moment decision since I had told Bill Cook of my decision to “boycott” BSP about a month and a half earlier at a Buccaneer Region meeting. My opinion is that other BSP owners, if they are dissatisfied with the SPAC’s decision, should do the same. The numbers would indicate that this may have occurred already. My guess is that this may occur in other classes with AWD cars also. It appears that the rally car crowd may wind up with AWD only classes whether they want them or not. This may have happened in BSP already. Be careful what you wish for!

The Atlanta Tour was one example of why the AWD cars should have their own class. Our Saturday runs started well after 9AM and we had to use water to maintain the two front tire temperatures below 130 degrees. On Sunday we started over an hour earlier (~8AM) and due to track and ambient temperatures/conditions I could only get one front tire up to 120 by the last run on a two driver car! Do you think an AWD car would have gained an advantage here? If not, a position on the SPAC would be in order for those individuals that can’t comprehend this. All you have to do is compare Joel’s times (from run group 3) on Saturday with 88 SM2 (run group 1) and then do the same comparison on Sunday. It was not that we felt we couldn’t compete with Gentleman Joel (and a gentleman he is) it was quite simply a political statement. Thankfully it didn’t cost Joel anything and at the most it cost us one tire. At this time we have made the decision to move to SM2, at least until sanity prevails and an AWD structure is created.

OK, I’ve got my flak jacket on so let it rip…

ewesch:

I don’t have an account on the NASIOC Forum so I would like to reply to Karen’s post (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1519051&page=5) on that forum here since it involves the BSP and AWD issue. Hi Karen…

First off, the BSP Corvette didn’t “bail” at the event. I registered for BSP only after emailing Nancy Downing about the ability to change classes at the event owing to the so surprising lack of interest in BSP. The day prior to leaving for the Atlanta Tour we received notification that the SPAC decided to leave the STI and Evo in BSP. At that time, prior to leaving, the decision to boycott the class (as did the other Corvette that registered for SM2) and move to SM2 was made. When I saw Joel at the event I spoke with him about his registration in XP and initially we both decided to run in BSP but later I decided to stick to my original decision and move to SM2 which I advised Joel of an hour or so after our initial conversation. This was not a spur of the moment decision since I had told Bill Cook of my decision to “boycott” BSP about a month and a half earlier at a Buccaneer Region meeting. My opinion is that other BSP owners, if they are dissatisfied with the SPAC’s decision, should do the same. The numbers would indicate that this may have occurred already. My guess is that this may occur in other classes with AWD cars also. It appears that the rally car crowd may wind up with AWD only classes whether they want them or not. This may have happened in BSP already. Be careful what you wish for!

The Atlanta Tour was one example of why the AWD cars should have their own class. Our Saturday runs started well after 9AM and we had to use water to maintain the two front tire temperatures below 130 degrees. On Sunday we started over an hour earlier (~8AM) and due to track and ambient temperatures/conditions I could only get one front tire up to 120 by the last run on a two driver car! Do you think an AWD car would have gained an advantage here? If not, a position on the SPAC would be in order for those individuals that can’t comprehend this. All you have to do is compare Joel’s times (from run group 3) on Saturday with 88 SM2 (run group 1) and then do the same comparison on Sunday. It was not that we felt we couldn’t compete with Gentleman Joel (and a gentleman he is) it was quite simply a political statement. Thankfully it didn’t cost Joel anything and at the most it cost us one tire. At this time we have made the decision to move to SM2, at least until sanity prevails and an AWD structure is created.

OK, I’ve got my flak jacket on so let it rip…

 Please explain the codrive situation.  I see 88 and 188 in SM2.  If that is the same car and is BSP prepped then the gap to Joel's BSP winning total time is in the 0.4 sec range.

 As for some of the participation, I think you'll see a good amount of regional variance.  For the upcoming Devens NT we have 9 drivers reg'd for BSP (albeit mostly evo's with a sprinkle of miata & sti).  I know there would have been at least one M3 if he didn't have schedule conflicts with the event.  There would also be another evo, but that car owner just had a baby boy last week.  This is almost double what we had last year at the same event.

John

Yes, the 88/188 SM2 car is BSP car. I would conjecture that if our car and Joel's car had run in the same heat on BOTH days the Corvette would have prevailed although winning under ideal track conditions with experienced drivers is not the issue. The problem is when conditions are not ideal, like this past cool Sunday morning.

It is my opinion that the inclusion of AWD cars in single axle drive classes will eventually hurt membership. I would conjecture that if you took a number of inexperienced drivers and allowed them to run a course in a BSP prepped Subi / Evo and then BSP prepped Corvettes or S2000's or for that matter and single axle car these inexperienced drivers would turn their best times in Subi / Evo. You could run this little test in Stock and Street Tire classes with similar results. This means the newbie to autocross single axle drivers will be looking elsewhere to spend their time and money. How would you feel if your buddy bought an STI and you bought an S2000 and you went to an event and he waxed your butt by 3 or 4 seconds? This is just MHO of course...

 The battle will go on, but with out me.

ewesch:

 . . .. At this time we have made the decision to move to SM2, at least until sanity prevails and an AWD structure is created.

OK, I’ve got my flak jacket on so let it rip…

We feel that we are competitive in BSP and the ability to win the class under ideal ambient and track conditions is not the issue. Compare Joel's times with ours, 88 SM2 vs. Joels in SM. Also take the opportunity to view our times at the Dixie NT where we won BSP by a margin of 2.440 sec. We do feel Joel had a slight advantage since we ran in the first run group and were unable to get our tire temps over 120 on Sunday due to weather conditions which would have afforded us better traction ( i know this is obvious but I'm just being fair to those that may not quite understand). Joel ran in run group 3 where temperaturs where much higher. The temp issue on Sunday underscores the OBVIOUS! If Joel had been in run group 1 he would have had an advantage. Single axle drive cars are different than AWD cars. The primary reason for the development of AWD vehicles was improved traction over two wheel drive vehicles. On a wet and/or cold autocross track, with similarly experienced and qualified drivers, a 1,000 hp Corvette is not going to beat a 300 hp Evo.

We are currently developing some tests to see why certain individuals are unable to understand the AWD / 2WD concept.  The first test we are proposing is a typical IQ test question where participants identify similar objects. We are suggesting photos of an STi, an Evo, an S2000 and a Honda Civic and we are going to ask automotively astute individuals to draw lines between the vehicles with the greatest similarities. We will even give them a hint by identifying them as 2WD and AWD!

EVOlutionary:

ewesch:

 . . .. At this time we have made the decision to move to SM2, at least until sanity prevails and an AWD structure is created.

OK, I’ve got my flak jacket on so let it rip…

Uhh, you don't feel you are competitive in BSP, so you move to a FASTER class?  Good logic there

You got it all wrong man.  He's saying that its fair for him to have a FASTER car when weather is ideal for his setup, but its unfair that an Evo MIGHT have better front tire heating abilities when the weather is a little cool.  He thinks that is a component of being AWD, not the fact that we have a 60% front weight bias and crappy strut design. 

Jazzie604:

EVOlutionary:

ewesch:

 . . .. At this time we have made the decision to move to SM2, at least until sanity prevails and an AWD structure is created.

OK, I’ve got my flak jacket on so let it rip…

Uhh, you don't feel you are competitive in BSP, so you move to a FASTER class?  Good logic there

 

You got it all wrong man.  He's saying that its fair for him to have a FASTER car when weather is ideal for his setup, but its unfair that an Evo MIGHT have better front tire heating abilities when the weather is a little cool.  He thinks that is a component of being AWD, not the fact that we have a 60% front weight bias and crappy strut design. 

No, No, No.  He is saying that we need a class where 15 year old technology should be faster than new technology.  For example - his "BSP" Vette was beaten by AS and BS (both classes that ran in the same heat as him) with cars that are only 2 and 4 years old.  Those overhead cam things and rotary engines are just confusing. 

ewesch:

We feel that we are competitive in BSP and the ability to win the class under ideal ambient and track conditions is not the issue. Compare Joel's times with ours, 88 SM2 vs. Joels in SM. Also take the opportunity to view our times at the Dixie NT where we won BSP by a margin of 2.440 sec. We do feel Joel had a slight advantage since we ran in the first run group and were unable to get our tire temps over 120 on Sunday due to weather conditions which would have afforded us better traction ( i know this is obvious but I'm just being fair to those that may not quite understand). Joel ran in run group 3 where temperaturs where much higher. The temp issue on Sunday underscores the OBVIOUS! If Joel had been in run group 1 he would have had an advantage. Single axle drive cars are different than AWD cars. The primary reason for the development of AWD vehicles was improved traction over two wheel drive vehicles. On a wet and/or cold autocross track, with similarly experienced and qualified drivers, a 1,000 hp Corvette is not going to beat a 300 hp Evo.

We are currently developing some tests to see why certain individuals are unable to understand the AWD / 2WD concept.  The first test we are proposing is a typical IQ test question where participants identify similar objects. We are suggesting photos of an STi, an Evo, an S2000 and a Honda Civic and we are going to ask automotively astute individuals to draw lines between the vehicles with the greatest similarities. We will even give them a hint by identifying them as 2WD and AWD!

Joel's car had issues on Saturday, so that isn't a valid comparison for Saturday vs Sunday.

You also were outpaced by AS,BS and FSP, all running in the 1st run group.  Maybe you should petition to move the car to FSP?

Also, if heating tires is an issue, why not run narrower tires? 

Top raw times by class (first column indicates where they ended up via RRTP): 

(  vs 109    Edward  Wesch    Hoosier    SM2    89.314 )

Jazzie604:

You got it all wrong man.  He's saying that its fair for him to have a FASTER car when weather is ideal for his setup, but its unfair that an Evo MIGHT have better front tire heating abilities when the weather is a little cool.  He thinks that is a component of being AWD, not the fact that we have a 60% front weight bias and crappy strut design. 

So if I put 315's on the rear of my EVO and they never get up to temp even on a 90* day then we should kick those darn BMW's out of SM!

ewesch:

On a wet and/or cold autocross track, with similarly experienced and qualified drivers, a 1,000 hp Corvette is not going to beat a 300 hp Evo.

Bad example there:  we all know hp has very little to do with autox.  on that same track a 300hp Corvette would also beat that 1000hp corvette. 

ewesch:

We are currently developing some tests to see why certain individuals are unable to understand the AWD / 2WD concept.  The first test we are proposing is a typical IQ test question where participants identify similar objects. We are suggesting photos of an STi, an Evo, an S2000 and a Honda Civic and we are going to ask automotively astute individuals to draw lines between the vehicles with the greatest similarities. We will even give them a hint by identifying them as 2WD and AWD!

oh cool, I'll play this game!!  the Sti and the Civic are both blue.  the s2k and the civic are both hondas.  hmmm, the evo and civic could be 4 doors, though the s2k and the civic could be 2 doors.  The new Sti is only a 5 door, so that doesnt fit in.....

 What Im getting at is its easy to setup a questionaire to get the answers you want to hear.  The hard part is finding out where your thoughts end and the real, unbiased questions begin. 

What really irks me is that you stated you whipped ass on the class when you had good conditions, but you're crying about cold weather.  Trust me, AWD cars hurt when their tires dont get warm just like your car does.  If you choose to run on the right tires for the conditions, then there will be much less disparity.  Dont cry over something that you could change yourself.  Or go run and hide in another class.  I dont know you from Adam, and you may be the next Massa, but I always thought that a great driver trumps good cars anyday.  guess you dont fall in that category.

ewesch:

 

I would conjecture that if you took a number of inexperienced drivers and allowed them to run a course in a BSP prepped Subi / Evo and then BSP prepped Corvettes or S2000's or for that matter and single axle car these inexperienced drivers would turn their best times in Subi / Evo.

Which is why we don't class cars based on how novices would do in them.  The whole point of this argument is that the Evo and STi don't belong in ASP.  Just like the Skystice, E46, M Coupes, MR2, etc. don't belong in ASP.  If that means somebody in a C4 needs perfect conditions to win BSP, then it just means you have a class with course and condition dependencies like nearly every other class out there.  

EVOlutionary:

Jazzie604:

You got it all wrong man.  He's saying that its fair for him to have a FASTER car when weather is ideal for his setup, but its unfair that an Evo MIGHT have better front tire heating abilities when the weather is a little cool.  He thinks that is a component of being AWD, not the fact that we have a 60% front weight bias and crappy strut design. 

So it's a tire heating issue? So then a RWD car with a iron big block should be in a different class because they have more weight on the front and may be able to get more heat in the front tires on a cool day? 

So if I put 315's on the rear of my EVO and they never get up to temp even on a 90* day then we should kick those darn BMW's out of SM!

Yeah, Joel had 315s on the front and 275s on the rear IIRC.

 -Brian
 

ewesch:

We feel that we are competitive in BSP and the ability to win the class under ideal ambient and track conditions is not the issue. Compare Joel's times with ours, 88 SM2 vs. Joels in SM. Also take the opportunity to view our times at the Dixie NT where we won BSP by a margin of 2.440 sec. We do feel Joel had a slight advantage since we ran in the first run group and were unable to get our tire temps over 120 on Sunday due to weather conditions which would have afforded us better traction ( i know this is obvious but I'm just being fair to those that may not quite understand). Joel ran in run group 3 where temperaturs where much higher. The temp issue on Sunday underscores the OBVIOUS! If Joel had been in run group 1 he would have had an advantage. Single axle drive cars are different than AWD cars. The primary reason for the development of AWD vehicles was improved traction over two wheel drive vehicles. On a wet and/or cold autocross track, with similarly experienced and qualified drivers, a 1,000 hp Corvette is not going to beat a 300 hp Evo.

We are currently developing some tests to see why certain individuals are unable to understand the AWD / 2WD concept.  The first test we are proposing is a typical IQ test question where participants identify similar objects. We are suggesting photos of an STi, an Evo, an S2000 and a Honda Civic and we are going to ask automotively astute individuals to draw lines between the vehicles with the greatest similarities. We will even give them a hint by identifying them as 2WD and AWD!

So it has nothing to do with the 3 cone slalom I was watching/taking pics of your runs at and you both screwed up that section each and every run both days? 

It's more about having the optimum conditions to be fast? 

ewesch:

We are currently developing some tests to see why certain individuals are unable to understand the AWD / 2WD concept.  The first test we are proposing is a typical IQ test question where participants identify similar objects. We are suggesting photos of an STi, an Evo, an S2000 and a Honda Civic and we are going to ask automotively astute individuals to draw lines between the vehicles with the greatest similarities. We will even give them a hint by identifying them as 2WD and AWD!

We are currently developing a test to see why certain individuals are unable to stand competition.   The first test we are proposing is a typical share-the-toy test to see whether they can play nice with strangers.

slowSER:

 

Combined ASP/BSP results from the last two years at Nationals

John Tak, Evo                          99.567

Michael Johnson, Z06               99.825

Tage Evanson, Evo                   100.353

Chris Cox, GT2,                       100.579

Harold Olsen, C4 Vette            100.790

Andrew Lieber, Evo                 100.841

James Gunn-Wilkinson, GT3    101.053

Lee Piccione, E36 M3              101.286

Rod McGeorge, C6 Z06          101.061

Scotty White, Viper                  101.366

Rob Boynton, GT2                   101.928

Jason Tipple, S2000                 101.969

Brian Hair, E46 M3                  102.109

Jason Uyeda, S2000                102.937

Justin Rothermel, STi                103.674

 

 

 

Mike Johnson, C5 Z06             87.505

Tom Berry, Evo                        87.572

Geoff Newman, GT2                89.115

Harold Olsen, C4 Vette            89.054

Marshall Grice, Evo                  89.152

Aaron Miller, Evo                     89.270

Michael Wootton                      89.321

Rod McGeorge, C6 Z06          89.412

Steve O’Blenes, Elise               89.579

Jason Uyeda, S2000                89.635

Rob Boynton, GT2                   89.679

Tommy Pulliam, C5 Z06           90.287

Randy Chase, Elise                   90.796

 

Just bringing this back to the top since we're comparing results from past events.

Pat