SCCAForums.com

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Erik Strelnieks
93 3-ROTOR RX7
01 Honda S2000
05 SLK 350 AMG
08 BMW 135i

Erik, you wouldn't happen to have a handy side-by-side comparison would you?  Anyone?

And for the 2nd annual Topeka Solo Invitational golf tournament can we scrap the "Topeka" handicap system in favor of the USGA one?

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Ted

2004 Z16/Z06 SS

Don't go by gut, go by numbers.  (side by side and some minor computations attached).

 Basically, most people have an easier index at a pro, but its relative to everyone else's index so it doesn't really matter what the raw index numbers are, it matters what the difference is no matter what system is used.

-Jon 

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ESP Camaro
Record:
Wins:0 (lost 1 by .001...... or 1.05 INCHES!!)
Losses:8
Woulda won if I hadn't.....:8

I voted for the RTP Pax, however, I would be interested in hearing Rick Ruth's input on this.  I suspect that if given the chance to develop a Pro Solo Pax, Rick would need to 'tweak' his Solo Pax numbers slightly to account for the launch. 

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Chike Dellimore - Blue Ridge/Washington DC Regions
2006 Galaxy Gray 6MT Mazda RX-8 (B-stock)
Former 2006 Steel Gray 5spd WRX (D-stock)

"Between now and Nats, f!ck seat time - I'm working on crazy!!!"

Chiketkd:

I voted for the RTP Pax, however, I would be interested in hearing Rick Ruth's input on this.  I suspect that if given the chance to develop a Pro Solo Pax, Rick would need to 'tweak' his Solo Pax numbers slightly to account for the launch. 

I have often run the PAX/RTP factors against the Pro Solo results.  In most cases, the factors seem to be good.  I think the bigger problem is that some cars in certain classes get a launch advantage (not significant in regular Solo) and, therefore, the factors may have certain issues.  The point, though, is the problem is with the car's being in "that" class, rather than the factor itself.

I suppose it would be possible to "fudge" the factors a bit to account for "some" of this problem.  At any rate, in my view, my experiments have indicated that the regular PAX/RTP factors do seem to work better than the Pro Solo factors.  I just don't know where SCCA comes up with some of theirs.  I suppose some wonder where I get mine. 

H's & K's,
Rick Ruth

STS2    0.818    STS2    0.807    +0.011

 

Yup, I love that launch the STS2 cars have over the rest of the field...

 

Personally, I voted for RTP since it is much more accurate, even at Pros, than the Pro Index. That's not to say the RTP would be appropriate either at Pro Solos, but with a little tweaking of the AWD and traction control-capable car classes, it could be real close.

 

-Mike King

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Mike King
88 CRX Si - STS2 #99
Jacksonville, FL
Team Bridgestone - King Motorsports - A-Spec Racing

rtp.rick:

  I think the bigger problem is that some cars in certain classes get a launch advantage (not significant in regular Solo) and, therefore, the factors may have certain issues. 

 

Rick, obviously you weren't at the Atlanta Tour.  When staged, both courses had you looking down a straight that was the length of most car's first gear.  May not be the norm but its just another factor that undermines indexes.

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Steve Hoelscher
#27 DP - Toyota MR2
2006 DP National Champion
'98, '99, '00, '02 DSP National Champion
http://www.terriehoward.com

Seeing Braun's and Salerno's places at the DC Pro jump from 47th and 51st in the Pro Index PAX to 6th and 7th in the regular PAX leads me to believe that the PRO Index may be broken and in need of a little tweaking. 

Anybody else have some good examples?

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Ted

2004 Z16/Z06 SS

If you're going to use the regular pax for Pros, you will get wrong numbers too IMHO.  The launch is worth something, and the courses are usually different from a regular tour event in terms of elements.  How many times at a Pro have you ever seen a Chicago box?  How about a 6 cone slalom?  Once in a blue moon, right?  I agree the Pro paxes need tweaking, but I don't think the regular pax is any more meaningful for a Pro Solo.

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Jer
#196 ES
#187 SS retired

Surferjer:

If you're going to use the regular pax for Pros, you will get wrong numbers too IMHO.  The launch is worth something, and the courses are usually different from a regular tour event in terms of elements.  How many times at a Pro have you ever seen a Chicago box?  How about a 6 cone slalom?  Once in a blue moon, right?  I agree the Pro paxes need tweaking, but I don't think the regular pax is any more meaningful for a Pro Solo.

As was pointed out to me by a member of the SAC...  There is no 90* turn mandate for Solo courses.  That makes every ProSolo course eligible to be run as a regular Solo course as it stands, launches and all.  The Atlanta Tour course is a good example of a ProSolo type straight start that was used during a Tour.  Then you are only left with a reaction time lag for the numbers to be good.  But R/T is driver based and not car based so it's a red herring anyway.  

Pro courses are different "types" of courses as pointed out by Jer.  But the types of differences are usually small.  Pro courses are straight forward, they don't try to obscure elements with extraneous cones (like using Chicago boxes). 

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Rob Leone

'07 Solstice GXP in AS
'87 Toyota Corolla in EP
ex - '91 MR2 Turbo in SM2 <- If you can't set a good example, serve as a horrible warning.

Same thing at the Finger Lakes ProSolo.  SS times are very poor using the Pro Index and move up to about where you'd think they should be with the Solo Index applied.

And yes the launch counts for something, but when the index pushes the class that far down the list (Conners at 28th using the Pro Index vs. 11th with the Solo Index) there's something wrong.  I'm sure there must be other classes where the index seems off too.

Heck, Brian was at least 1.8 seconds faster in raw time than every other stock class champion yet was out paxed by all the other class winners!  Is SS really more than 1.8 seconds faster than AS?  If so then there's plenty of room for that "Tweener class"!!

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Ted

2004 Z16/Z06 SS

Modified index classes suffer as well. Don't see too many B Mods ever at a pro, part of the reason is an RTP/Pax of 0.937 vs. a Pro Index of 0.950. Put this in the same class as the relatively soft Pro Index afforded to FM and there is no way to be competitive in the M1 class with a BM car. The Pro Index is broken IMHO.

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Joe Gonzalez
1979 Legrand DSR- B Mod
Gilbertsville, NY

I think one of the biggest CAR related differences reflected between the 2 pax systems is the launch/straight during a pro that isn't USUALLY there at a tour.

 At a typical pro, the launch/straight takes up what, 3 seconds of a 30 second course?  Thats 10%! 

 At a 60second tour course, thats only 5%, so a car that launches and hooks better (faster 60ft, 200ft times) has a much greater advantage at a pro then at a tour.

 The Seneca pro was closer to that 5% where toledo is the 10% .  The same indexing system doesn't work for both, but there needs to be some indexing system in order to run indexed/bumped classes, so what do you do?

 Maybe the indexing needs to be updated more frequently?  Maybe a larger data sample needs to be maintained?  Who knows.

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ESP Camaro
Record:
Wins:0 (lost 1 by .001...... or 1.05 INCHES!!)
Losses:8
Woulda won if I hadn't.....:8

TedDBere:

Seeing Braun's and Salerno's places at the DC Pro jump from 47th and 51st in the Pro Index PAX to 6th and 7th in the regular PAX leads me to believe that the PRO Index may be broken and in need of a little tweaking. 

Anybody else have some good examples?

 

The GS winner went from 5th in the Pro Index to 31st in the regular PAX, and the HS winner went from 10th to 32nd, DS winner goes from 6th to 18th, STS winner from 9th to 29th, AS winner stays in the same position under both indexes.  As noted above, the SS drivers move up dramatically.  Looks like Mod, STU, BS, are among the classes that also move up a lot.  Seems like under the regular PAX, the higher horsepower cars tend move up and the lower horsepower cars move significantly down when applied to Pro results in comparison to the Pro Index.   This is just looking at FLR Pro, which wasn't exactly a typical Pro (longer course, only one launch).  Would be interesting to know if similar patterns are present in the other pros.   Sounds like neither index is exactly right for all classes for the ProSolo format at the moment.

Jeff J.