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Just as an FYI, sitting next to Howard right now reading him "interesting" parts of this thread, and he did say that FJ does not count against the cap at this event (and I believe all Pros).

 

--Donnie 

I'm all for kids running in big events---if they are ready.  I'm about to offend someone, not sure who, but someone.  Here goes.  Sorry.

There was a kid running a FJ kart in the Atlanta tour who was not ready and should not have been there.  The kid was off course most of the time, ran more than double the time of the other karts, and seemed very scared of the throttle.  I applaud the child and parent for the participation, but NOT in a National event.  That child IMHO should have spent a season or two getting comfortable at the local level before running and delaying a National event.  The parent should have realized this before the child was entered.  In two season or maybe less she would either a) be up to speed, you know-within 20 seconds of the other karts, or b) proven she did not have the desire or the ability to compete. 

 I guess now I'm an azz, but I discussed this both Saturday and Sunday (different work stations) and all the workers agreed---only no one wants to say anything so as to not look like an azz. 

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Jer
#196 ES
#187 SS retired

TeamRX8:

no, but it is their place to make decisions that they deem in the best interest of the club/sport which is exactly what they do on this subject

Of course.  The things that Patrick mentioned that I responded to don't really have anything to do with the club or sport.  I'm not advocating allowing jr karts or keeping them out.  I just don't want the club making a decision based on things that should be left to the parents (and/or kids themselves).

 

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clyde
#198 AS Boxster S - in need of SpinGuard
TeamWTF?!

 

How about if your too slow---ADULTS included, you can't race.

I say let the kids race.  Let's see there were 3 FJB karts in Atlanta, and we always get the karts out before the start time on the supps----so what's the problem.

You worked first Jer----so you got the best work temps, and no real direct sun----

Besides if you had to be fast to run a national event then half the people wouldn't be there.

Next thing were going to discuss is that you have to be a dorky looking doofus to run nationals, as that's most of us.  But if you try to do this you risk offending the one or two hot chicks that actually show up to race.

How about if you spill oil on the course----you get suspended for 1 year----

Or if your tent hits over 3 cars you get suspended for 1 year.

 

PS----ass is spelled ass, and not azz

PPS---i should be banned for a multitute of reasons, not the least of which would be to make my wife happy.

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Trying to get faster

David Lehman:

 

How about if your too slow---ADULTS included, you can't race.

I say let the kids race.  Let's see there were 3 FJB karts in Atlanta, and we always get the karts out before the start time on the supps----so what's the problem.

You worked first Jer----so you got the best work temps, and no real direct sun----

Besides if you had to be fast to run a national event then half the people wouldn't be there.

Next thing were going to discuss is that you have to be a dorky looking doofus to run nationals, as that's most of us.  But if you try to do this you risk offending the one or two hot chicks that actually show up to race.

How about if you spill oil on the course----you get suspended for 1 year----

Or if your tent hits over 3 cars you get suspended for 1 year.

 

PS----ass is spelled ass, and not azz

PPS---i should be banned for a multitute of reasons, not the least of which would be to make my wife happy.

I thought ass would turn into ***.  Guess that's only a Philly board thing.  Agreed on the tent, not sure on the oil. 

 David, there's a difference between being slow and what we saw there.  It looked like her first time in the kart.  I would not want a newbie in any car to have their first or nearly their first event be a National tour event.  Nor a Pro Solo.  I'm pretty sure I'm not alone.  But wait---

On the flipside, I will pretend I'm her Dad and I want to race and bring the family.  Daughter is in a kart and says "Can I race?"  I'm not going to say no, I'm going to beam with pride and load up the kart, painfully slow times be damned.  So maybe I should retract what I said.   And for the good news-on her runs we were able to briskly walk 150 yards to the portapottie and back before she finished.  Guess I should be happy. 

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Jer
#196 ES
#187 SS retired

Good grief. And this is not directed at any one individual.

In the scheme of life there are much bigger things to worry about than a couple of kids running in a ProSolo. 

We should be cheering and waiving them on, as they try what must be a very scarey moment, and make their memory a positive one they will look back on and say, "Wow, that was great.  Thanks mom and dad for letting me do that! Those people were awesome!"

Now, if I could only drive faster....

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Ted

2004 Z16/Z06 SS

Surferjer:

 David, there's a difference between being slow and what we saw there.  It looked like her first time in the kart.  I would not want a newbie in any car to have their first or nearly their first event be a National tour event.  Nor a Pro Solo.  I'm pretty sure I'm not alone.  But wait---

I think your points are valid on the kid side, but I do want to point out that a lot more people than you might think made their debuts at big events.  I did one small event that was so small it hardly counted as much in the way of initiation to autocross and then a couple weeks later did a ProSolo at Ft. Myers.  That small event had four first gear turnarounds and it was 40 degrees all day and we were on Victoracers.  The Ft. Myers event was plenty warm and I was on new Hoosiers.  I think we had seven or eight in class and I finished fifth and coned away third.

Not tooting my own horn, but I'm quite certain I'm not alone in going to a big national event with very little experience.  Would I take my kid out that way?  Heck no.

--Donnie


 

Based on Donnie's first post, I'm sure someone will by midnight tonight count entries and see if they do or don't include the FJR's. (!)

Of my two kids, the older one is clearly into it, and now that he is in FJA with a new unrestricted World Formula, most definitely does not hold things up.  The younger one, well, she -likes- the idea of running the kart, but the all day reality that is autocross gets a little much for her.  She typically runs about a third of the local events her brother does, and only does the local Devens Tour.  She has no problem finding the course, but does drive at what can best be described at her own pace.

Kids have been allowed at Tours and Pros since the inception of FJR, IIRC.  That has been about 10 years now.  And everyone has sort of managed to get along.....up until the recent announcement of letting FJR's run at Nationals and at the Pro Finale.

The latter was not a move I was in favor of doing, and was semi-vocal about on a few fronts where the idea was being floated.  Now that it is in place, at least for this year, will mine run?  At the moment, yes.  Does that make me a hypocrite?  Maybe.  If the family goes, it will only be my son in FJA.  My daughter recognizes Nationals is more pressure than she wants on put upon herself.  In all likelihood too this will be a one year only deal for us.  My round number is this is going to be a $2000 add to the Nationals trip travel cost between airfares, hotel and food.  That is a lot of coin.  And since #1 will be entering 8th Grade in 2009, and then high school after that, this is as old as he can be to pull him out of school for what will be 5 days.

It will be interesting if FJR has legs beyond this year at Nationals.
 

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Rob Foley

no more Celica
86 Civic EP

djb_rh:

Just as an FYI, sitting next to Howard right now reading him "interesting" parts of this thread, and he did say that FJ does not count against the cap at this event (and I believe all Pros).

FJ is certainly counting against the cap at the DC Pro. I just took the time to add up the entries that are listed, and including FJA and FJB, I came up with 250 (and that includes the two that don't have classes with them (Rod McGeorge and Darren Mass)). If FJ didn't count towards the entry cap, that number should have been 256.

I haven't looked at the Toledo numbers, but if FJ doesn't count towards the entry cap at Toledo, why should it count at DC?

Karen

[on edit] (of course someone would add up the numbers, Rob!! and the reason I did it is because my codriver is still on the DC Pro wait list, so I have a vested interest in seeing him get into the event, and if six entrants aren't supposed to "count" towards that entry cap....)

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Karen Kraus
2005 SEDiv FS Champion
2007 DSL National Champion <shrug>

I'd suggest someone with a vested interest in this should let Nancy know of any discrepancies.

 

--Donnie 

When I was kid I was told, more than once, that I when I was older I could do X, Y, or Z.... but that I wasn't entitled just because.

 I'm sorry, but I'd like to know just what kind of full work assignments kids put in.  They can't work course, or grid, or in the timing van, or even do waivers (they can't even sign their own waiver).  Meanwhile plenty of adults get to sit around waiting for it to rain, or get hotter, or for their work assignment to be lengthened for the kids.  The parents are the ones working extra, and the kids can't pull the same weight the rest of us do as workers. 

 Just yesterday, the afternoon heats of a 250+ car event waited for about 20 minutes for maybe 10 kids in karts to run.  I could not leave for my 5 hour drive home until my girlfriend was done running (set back by the kid karts) and then done working (after her heat).  So @ 5:10 pm we pulled out of the site, and 6th heat had barely started.  I know, 20 minutes seems like so little, but it adds up. 

 I think there are some great kids driving karts.  I do.  And I can appreciate the proud parents liking to see their kids doing it.  But have a little respect for the rest of us.  This has moved beyond "cute" and a way to get kids involved at a local level. It's evolved (or devolved) into a "national" thing, just like STS has.  All good intentions, but a whole lot of short-sightenedness with regards to what actually might happen a year or 4 down the road. 

 

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Sam Strano
Owner--Strano Performance Parts
800-729-1831

There are some very vocal parents out there, finding a few sympathetic ears along the way, pushing for this to end up how it has.

I was on the SEB when Formula Junior was created.  It was to be a membership retention tool, in order to keeps kids and their parent interested in the game once little ones turned into bigger ones that got bored being dragged to a parking lot all day.  The horse was let out of the barn after a few years when the two classes by age got split into four separating 2 cycles from 4 cycles, and has further evolved as time goes on with several new motor intros, including the most recent Rotax proposal.  A $3000 kart motor!  WTF?  All because some parents are operating on their own agendas.  At the event we were at yesterday, I felt a little discomfort as none of the other parents or kids were particularly happy we now have a World Formula motor, but, when in Rome, do as the Romans, meaning if the allowance is in the rulebook, take advantage of it because others sure will (and have been).

Back on topic, I most definitely thought the kids counted against entry caps.  News to me if they don't, and I think counter to several things posted a number of times this year leading up to the present.
 

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Rob Foley

no more Celica
86 Civic EP

I've read this thread (especially the last several posts) with some mixed feelings.  Here they are, in no particular order:

1) I hope my kids want to drive karts.  I think it's great for them because it's fun AND because they are learning important skills.  They will also get to enjoy a sport that I love and share that with me.

2) For whatever reason, it seems to take an inordinate amount of time for the karts to run.  Much longer than for the the same number of cars to run.  It may be an interaction between (a) cars not being allowed to move anywhere while the karts are running, including in grid; (b) karts seem to break quite often; (c) some of the drivers are faster than others.  MUCH faster.  In Atlanta, I timed it and the three karts took about 8-9 minutes to do each run.  So, about 25 minutes for three karts to run.  Someone could do the math on cars, but it's not that long per car.

3) My understanding is that entry caps are to allow the event to finish in a reasonable amount of time.  If this is the case (considering point #2 above) it seems silly to NOT count karts toward an entry cap.

4) I feel bad for anyone that doesn't get into an event they would like to get into.   

Jonathan Roberts
 

I say let FJ's have their rights too----HOWEVER......

It has been brought to my attention by this thread that there is some ENTRY CRAP, as it relates to pros and tours, and while I support FJ's in theory-----

I think the whole thing needs to be reconsidered if entrants participate with a CRAP in their kart suit.  If this might be the case, and considerering the hot temperatures of the kart suits-----

We might just be talking about a MAJOR enviromental hazard on our hands.

------------------------------------

Something else to consider......

1)  They didn't let FJ's run but I didn't care because I am not them

2)  Stopped letting HS run because it was embarassing that a Chrysler Town and Country is faster than a majority of HS in a straight line, but I didn't care.

3)  They stopped letting RICE run, but I didn't care because I drive a car from the USA.

4)  They stopped letting Disimo run because he has an unfair weight advantage (and not 100 % sure, but I think there is a possibility that he stiffed me 9 cents on a dollar bet), but I am not Darrin so I let it slide.

5)  Everybody complained about the Shelby GT so they kicked it out also

6)  BSP was eliminated because there was too much arguing

7)  All 4 cylinder cars were axed because they were too annoying

and finally they kicked ME out because my superior fashion sense and grace made everyone else feel backwards and out of place------I tried to get other people to stick up for me, but there was no one left in the club (Execept for the Hollis'es, and Ann told Andy she didn't want me to be in the club.)

 

PS---I was announcing for FJ at the Atlanta Tour, and frankly there were just so many of them, that it was simply overwhelming.......so overwhelming that I was very nervous that I would be able to keep the entire mob of FJ entrants straight......I studied the FJ  entry list for 30 minutes the night before, and steeled myself for the confusion that was sure to follow the next day.  I was very very nervous, but kinda confident at the same time----neverwracking to say the least, but somehow I pulled it off, and was able to keep track of all THREE of them-----WHEW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PSS---Please note that in lieu of FJ's at events, and in the interest of not having the children of participants going stir crazy out in a parking lot all day----I hereby volunteer myself to talk about burps, farts, and boogers all day in an effort to keep the youngest among us entertained throughout the day.

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Trying to get faster

I'm not anti-kid karts.  In fact I spent much time and money fighting to keep them locally though I don't have kids.  Locally, when the day is not disrupted I have no issue with them. 

 I most certainly do when the flow of things is severly hampered by them.  Have we or have we not all been witness to timing issues, sometimes massive ones at events?  And Professor Roberts has pointed out very clearly that karts take much more time to run than adults do.  And when a car stalls on course, he can start himself.... the kids can't. 

 Give an inch and folks will take a mile, it's happening here and has been over the years.  Should semi-pro baseball players make time for a little league game at the 7th inning stretch?  The fact is that karts have a place in SCCA now, and that needs not be National level events.  Hell, most folks who autox don't go to nationals and they don't cause a problem with timing and delays.  Nationals is not the time or the place for 10 8 year olds to be holding up 1200 full grown adults.  I don't think it's much wonder why we find spoiled kids.  They are stupid, and they see how the world works.  And when the "world" in this case bends to the will of the very few (who can't pull their own weight even), that's pretty sad. 

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Sam Strano
Owner--Strano Performance Parts
800-729-1831

Now that Sam mentions it the little kids did put a bit of a damper on my TOPEKA experience last year.  It was Monday night if I remembe correctly, I was at Baby Dolls for a little R&R and wanted to kick back with a beer. 

The bartender said, "Sorry guy it's kids nite here at Baby Dolls tonight, no beers, just grape juice, iced tea, and lemonade---so what's your poison ?"-----that in and of itself wouldn't have been that bad, but the girls didn't even know I was alive----and I had a wallet stuffed with 1's.

BTW----we run in parking lots to have FUN !  We are not saving the world, or engaging in a worthy cause----and Winning or Losing is not a big deal-----having FUN is......

(and my fun is arguing about stupid stuff on the internet)

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Trying to get faster

Sam, I've seen plenty of work assignments that kids are capable of.  Are you assuming a 15 year old can't work in the timing trailer?  Or how about an 8yr old helping with Setup?  Tear down?  Announcer assistant?  Registration?  Stuffing participant bags at Nationals?  Whenever possible, kids should be given responsibilities, most of the time it's the adults that are afraid to give it to them.  Heck, they can even hand out trophies to people like "Mr. Strano" (as some kids would respectfully refer to you as).

 

Rob, if you're going to announce the price of a Rotax, please be more specific to further educate those interested:

1)  One motor from the time you're 6yrs old to whatever age you don't want to drive a kart anymore (60?)
2)  50-60 hours on a top end rebuild
3)  Push button start and stop, which will help prevent delays of the parent needing to be part of the process
4)  Dual purpose with Sprint Karting classes if they so desire (most of the FJ motors can do that)
5)  Sealed motor, so nobody wins because extra monies they've spent on the motor

You don't have to buy any particular motor, and in fact, the Rotax motors in their designated FJ classes are down on power from the current motors (6.7hp vs. 9hp in FJB, 13.5hp vs. 16hp in FJA).  They're simply being brought in to allow more convenience and less tuning, along with longevity and cross-over from a large international organization.

 

I feel that the SCCA is offering an opportunity for the kids to participate on any level they choose, whether it be Regional, Divisional, or Nationals.  If the kids don't want to, they don't have to.  If the parent doesn't feel they're ready, they don't have to let them.  Bottom line is that the opportunity to do this on every level as a family is now available, nobody is forcing anyone to do it.

Brian

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**3Generacing**
Craig: STX MINI Cooper S
Jane: A Stock Boxster S
Brian: F125 2000 CTS/Honda
Lisa: F125 2002 CTS/Honda
Julian: CRG Cadet/KT100
Carson: Intrepid Cadet/KT100

How about putting kids in Impound, to crawl under cars and check for rules violations----their kart suits should kinda protect them from the occasional hot muffler-------

Or how about using kids to get Happy Meals at McDonalds, and discounted movie tickets......

PS---kids don't eat that much at the welcome party

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Trying to get faster

clyde:

Is it the club's place to get involved in parenting decisions about values, education, etc?

I would agree with you that it's not.  How a parent approaches this fun time with their kids is really their own business, but I see it more as how the environment created can influence how it all goes.  I really have no problem myself with the karts.  I don't feel like they take time away from me, and I enjoy them a bunch when announcing at events.  Get to have a little fun with it, give them lots of encouragement and "atta boys/girls".  I remember being very proud of my little girl, no matter how she did.  Many of my friends bring their kids out and it's great to have them there and I am very glad they can do that.  It's not about all that.

I liken it to youth hockey to a degree.  The younger set gets into youth hockey that emphasises the game...the fun...the playing, not so much the winning.  Of course they kept score and they did "win" or "lose", but the main emphasis was not on that.  They look up the bigger kids who compete at another level and play to win, and they know they will get there when it's their time.  I was also a little concerned when it split into 4 classes.  It's not so much getting involved in parents decisions as it is just "framing" the program in a certain way.  Not sure that makes sense to anyone but me.

I was recently reminded that this is a provisional class at Nats, so there is no trophy, jacket, or name in the book stuff.  I believe I also read where they are going to run them in such a way as to not impact the normal event times.  I'm certainly not upset about it, and it does not bother me in the least that they will be there.  It just triggered a slight concern that it's the best thing to do in the long term.  Not a huge issue really, it's just a personal opinion.

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Patrick Washburn
STU Evo
www.winghats.com