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I also think that in addition to allowing update/backdate between things like the e36m3 and other e36 chassis or 92-95 civics, alternate non-USDM bumper beams should be allowed, such as JDM bumper beams for the Subaru STi.  This is a common mod for those running FMICs.

-Brian
 

mageep:

boxboy:

A Miata at 2240 lbs and 340whp will have about the exact same weight/power ratio as my RX-7 at Nationals this year.

-Andy M. 

Yeah, but I meant W/P ratio in the DRY, Andy! ;)

 I appreciate your $.02, but I guess I'm a little unclear on the thinking. If I could ask you to elaborate..The RX7s are not drastically heavier than I am thinking, are they?

Well, my car is about 400whp (more or less depending on dyno) and weighs 253x on HPT scales ....6.325lbs/hp.   Erik's car is a different story at 2720lbs and 475whp...5.7lbs/hp.  I guess the point I was trying to make was that you can get a Miata to a similar or even not as good power to weight and it would do well since it will still be hundreds of pounds lighter.  IMO, lighter weight will always pay very good dividends even when you fall a bit short in the power dept.

 
Witness Mike Wooton in his BSP Miata.  He probably was in the low 200's whp and was only about 1 second off the SM2 pace on the West course.  Could he pick up another second with an additional 100hp?  I bet he'd be close and that's an SP prepped car that could benefit from other SM mods. 

 All that said, the power of perception exists everywhere in Solo so it may take some new ideas to make SM2 seem like a more even playing field.  So please continue the thread and throw 'em out there. 
 

-Andy
 

BrianGT:

I also think that in addition to allowing update/backdate between things like the e36m3 and other e36 chassis or 92-95 civics, alternate non-USDM bumper beams should be allowed, such as JDM bumper beams for the Subaru STi.  This is a common mod for those running FMICs.

-Brian
 

I'd be willing to bet there a lot of cars not running front crash beams due to larger FMIC's.

The USDM one is huge compared to the JDM one, and you can fit most FMICs with the JDM one.

I see a sizable amount of people locally with WRX/STIs running the JDM beam, just so that they can run the bigger fog lights or FMICs.

Same goes for other cars that want to run the JDM or EDM bumpers.
 

boxboy:

snip

IMO, lighter weight will always pay very good dividends even when you fall a bit short in the power dept.

snip

-Andy
 

 Hence my request to help the smaller (not just Miata) forced induction engines with suggestion number #3  multiplier versus adder.
 

ChrisSwearingen:

 Hence my request to help the smaller (not just Miata) forced induction engines with suggestion number #3  multiplier versus adder.
 

Hence my post back a page or so. If you want to make a convincing argument for the multiplier, it needs to be based on why the current adder doesn't make sense, not because small cars need help weighing less. All the multiplier/adder does is try and equalize FI and NA. It really does nothing regarding big cars vs. small cars. I'd look at other aspects of the weight formula to address this.

rnoll98:

ChrisSwearingen:

 Hence my request to help the smaller (not just Miata) forced induction engines with suggestion number #3  multiplier versus adder.
 

Hence my post back a page or so. If you want to make a convincing argument for the multiplier, it needs to be based on why the current adder doesn't make sense, not because small cars need help weighing less. All the multiplier/adder does is try and equalize FI and NA. It really does nothing regarding big cars vs. small cars. I'd look at other aspects of the weight formula to address this.

Oh but it does...   Most would agree that you can make more power with more displacement.

If you compare the difference between and adder and a multiplier, you can see that the penalty for forced induction is more severe on cars with displacments less than 3.5 liters.  Over 5.2 liters the max weight cap kicks in at 2900 anyway.  So the question becomes at least to me, does the 280lb for all car weight penalty for forced induction accurately reflect the true performance increase of forced induction?  Or is it, as I suggest, more closely tied to displacement?  The current rule seems to suggest that a 1.6 Liter supercharged motor gains the same amount of benefit that a 5.1 liter motor does.  I disagree with that. 

See the chart below for a comparison of the adder versus multiplier effect.

I appreciate how hard it is to make such a wide range of cars somewhat equitable.  The adder versus multiplier isn't enough to keep me away.

But lets not lose sight of #4 above either.  IF I do have to add weight to the car to stay legal, how about letting me bolt it to the passenger floor boards instead of in the trunk?
 

 Edit, that looked much better when I pasted it in but you get the idea

Chris,

Do you think a fully built FI 1.6L motor is equivalent to a fully built 2.2L NA motor?

You have to be able to argue YES to this if you are going to support the 1.4 multiplier.

rnoll98:

Chris,

Do you think a fully built FI 1.6L motor is equivalent to a fully built 2.2L NA motor?

You have to be able to argue YES to this if you are going to support the 1.4 multiplier.

My suggestion was multiplier instead of adder.  To support that I only have to be able to argue that a  5.1L gets more benefit from forced induction than a 1.6L and that's an EASY YES.

Debating if the 1.4 number is right or not is a whole different discussion and effects a lot more classes than just SM/2. I will tell you that I think the potential of a FI 1.6 is a lot closer to the potential of a NA 2.2 than that of a NA 3.0  b

You can build an NA 5.1L to make 500whp easy. How does FI benefit this motor at an autox? Are you going to be faster with 800whp vs. 500whp?

1.  Allow more freedom for mounting FMICs. 

2.  Increase minimum weights or allow more freedom in weight reduction.

Those are the only things I'd change.

*Art Rinner
*92 Sentra SE-R
*#823 STS
*SCNAX (Sport Compact National Autocross Club)

I'm going to agree with Chris on the placement of ballast.  We should be able to put it anywhere.

What about a minimum weight with driver not without? 

fourwhls:

I'm going to agree with Chris on the placement of ballast.  We should be able to put it anywhere.

 

What about a minimum weight with driver not without? 

 That second suggestion nets me at least 50 lbs on Andy and Erik.  Not sure thats really a good thing but you take it where you can get it.
 

what do you guys think of SM being split into 2 weight based classes? for instance SM light and SM heavy. i would say the weight break about 2400. this would merge the SM2 winning cars with SM winners, and imho, i think it is totally reasonable. on the other side of the coin, the backmarkers in both classes will be up against each other.  

Rodney:

what do you guys think of SM being split into 2 weight based classes? for instance SM light and SM heavy. i would say the weight break about 2400. this would merge the SM2 winning cars with SM winners, and imho, i think it is totally reasonable. on the other side of the coin, the backmarkers in both classes will be up against each other.

I think this is a great idea. I'd pair it up with combining STS and STS2 and re-splitting them at 1.9 liters and not allow sub 1.9 liter cars compete in the 1.9+ liter class.
 

i'd like to be able to substitute the front subframe from a new Impreza(02+) to my 1994 Impreza.  This would allow me the use of more front sway bar selections and have the cutout for a turbo manifold.  I'd like to also agree with the above posts on the carpet removal.....only minimal gains if any and I think safety related(so that it's not in the way or causing a gas pedal hangup).

Jose

Rodney:

what do you guys think of SM being split into 2 weight based classes? for instance SM light and SM heavy. i would say the weight break about 2400. this would merge the SM2 winning cars with SM winners, and imho, i think it is totally reasonable. on the other side of the coin, the backmarkers in both classes will be up against each other.  

I don't think there was a sub-2400# car in the trophies this year in SM2. In fact, I don't think a sub-2400# car has ever won an open championship in either SM or SM2.

rnoll98:

 I don't think a sub-2400# car has ever won an open championship in either SM or SM2.

this is more evidence that we could easily split the group into 2 based on weight. my car has been one of the lighter SM cars, in the trophies every year since i first hit nationals in 2003. i love the challenge, but after taking a beating year after year, well, it sucks.

i was just going through my results from the second day at HPT, and comparing daddio's fast run vs the fast runs of strelnieks. roughly half a second separate the two. granted, mckee was a full second faster, but now let's compare cars. daddio's still has a/c, and he drove it there, making the 3000 mile jaunt whilst sitting in his race bucket. imho, the rally cars will continue to get faster, and daddio only helps illustrate how fast these cars are already with minimal mods.

look at the stock to sp to sm breakdown:

there is some sort of m3, corvette and rally car in AS. in BSP there are a m3, corvette and rally car, and ASP holds an m3 and corvette as well (perhaps rally cars, as they have proven to have ASP performance, with nearly an identical combined time this year at HPT).

now WHY should we split them up in SM? "no, the vette doesn;t have a backseat...." stupid reasonaing imho. if need be, make the min weight higher for the rally cars so the m3 contingent is happy. same with the fd's. let them run a few more lbs to put things on an even keel.

now, onto SM2 results: first place miata was in 10th. i know everyone is afraid of the "perfect" rotory power billion hp miata, but none has ever emerged. if it does, we can re-evaluate, and perhaps put some weight on them, but to date, it has not yet happened. same with the datsuns/corolla's that get bumped to sm2 because they are 1900 lbs. these cars should be in SM light, competing against fwd SM cars. i would rather compete against a 350hp miata then a 500+ hp awd rally car. i know the miata will have issues putting down this power, so it makes it easier to swallow then daddio's claimed 10 second rally monster. 

fwd has all but disappeared from SM, and i personally know 3 people that still have their cars, but gave up on the class. i like the creativity of SM, and do not plan on going anywhere, as i have a new car in the works. but, i am buying an s2000 soon, and may run in AS a little as to lessen the constant sting of 1/2 second losses on the 60' in pro solo alone....