SCCAForums.com

Surferjer:

StuMax:

Yes. But I think the EliseSC is a poor example of an XS car. I think we can all pretty much count on it being in SS next year.

I'm not so sure it will be let into SS.   It could be an overdog, endangering the most well-subscribed class in Solo. 

That doesn't seem to have made any difference in DS...
 

Touche'.  

My personal opinion is they SHOULD put the Exige and Elise S in SS, but I'd be surprised if they actually did. 

murph1379:

Surferjer:

StuMax:

Yes. But I think the EliseSC is a poor example of an XS car. I think we can all pretty much count on it being in SS next year.

I'm not so sure it will be let into SS.   It could be an overdog, endangering the most well-subscribed class in Solo. 

That doesn't seem to have made any difference in DS...
 

DS is not the most well-subscribed class in solo.  The winningest car is a 7 to 10 year old, $20,000, frequently stolen, rare Acura.  Oh, and it's currently slower than G Stock at most events.

SS has two competitive cars that are easy to find, easy on tires, about the same price and it's been a formula for success. 

John V:

DS is not the most well-subscribed class in solo.  The winningest car is a 7 to 10 year old, $20,000, frequently stolen, rare Acura.  Oh, and it's currently slower than G Stock at most events.

SS has two competitive cars that are easy to find, easy on tires, about the same price and it's been a formula for success. 

It still seems weird to me that they put the Cayman into SS/AS and the 135 into DS...they are getting reviewed along side each other in magazines and on tv shows and the 135 is not turning out to be a slouch. the Cayman has an open diff as well.  Although at HPT my money would be on a 2008 TT with the 18x9 wheels and the V6, did i mention it has launch control for the pro's?

The Cayman makes its time in handling, the 135 makes it with power.  They may be well matched on a road course, but autocross is more handling intensive.

The lack of LSD is less of a liability in a car with rear weight bias than it is with near 50/50 balance.
 

I've come to the understanding that the Sports Car Club of America is focused on the members, not the cars. 

When 70 national competitors like the cars in a class the way it is (SS) then the SAC and SEB should be careful not to do anything the members are against, ie adding a car that will obsolete those 70 competitors.

However when the class has a rather rare overdog car that the other class competitors can't get, or don't want to get, so they leave the class (DS) then the SAC and SEB look to find ways to make the class more interesting for the members to attract new competitors to the class.

New car classing is about the membership, not the car. IMHO.

TedDBere:

I've come to the understanding that the Sports Car Club of America is focused on the members, not the cars. 

When 70 national competitors like the cars in a class the way it is (SS) then the SAC and SEB should be careful not to do anything the members are against, ie adding a car that will obsolete those 70 competitors.

However when the class has a rather rare overdog car that the other class competitors can't get, or don't want to get, so they leave the class (DS) then the SAC and SEB look to find ways to make the class more interesting for the members to attract new competitors to the class.

New car classing is about the membership, not the car. IMHO.

Well, this is the way it should be.  Unfortunately this is not always what is done.  Look no further than C-stock the last couple of years for an example.  It went from a very popular class to a much less popular class that even now has a trunk kit car in it.

Dave G. 

talon95:

Well, this is the way it should be.  Unfortunately this is not always what is done.  Look no further than C-stock the last couple of years for an example.  It went from a very popular class to a much less popular class that even now has a trunk kit car in it.

Dave G. 

1.5 truck kit cars, both without AC.

John V:

murph1379:

That doesn't seem to have made any difference in DS...
 

DS is not the most well-subscribed class in solo.  The winningest car is a 7 to 10 year old, $20,000, frequently stolen, rare Acura.  Oh, and it's currently slower than G Stock at most events.

SS has two competitive cars that are easy to find, easy on tires, about the same price and it's been a formula for success. 

 An excellent argument for moving the MCS to DS or merging DS and GS, but not a good argument for classing the 135 in DS with the 335 in FS.  I think Murph's point was simply that logic doesn't seem to reign.
 

John V:

DS is not the most well-subscribed class in solo.  The winningest car is a 7 to 10 year old, $20,000, frequently stolen, rare Acura.  Oh, and it's currently slower than G Stock at most events.

Is it DS's fault that the MCS hasn't been moved? Oh, and DS was hardly the smallest stock class at Nationals. I do believe that was either HS or FS. Even locally, DS has a dozen or more competitors at every event. Obviously not literally the most well-subscribed class, but it's hardly on its deathbed. Additionally, there are obviously other cars that can compete against the Integra. I think Bartek won the last two years because he's a decent driver, not because he was in an Integra. And in the last 5 years, the ITR won 3 of them. Oh, and last, but not least, if you paid $20K for your ITR, you were ripped off big time.

SS has two competitive cars that are easy to find, easy on tires, about the same price and it's been a formula for success. 

DS has a heck of a lot more than two competitive cars that are easy to find, and cost $15K or less.

I'll talk to you in person tomorrow, John.

CamaroFS34:

Is it DS's fault that the MCS hasn't been moved? Oh, and DS was hardly the smallest stock class at Nationals. I do believe that was either HS or FS. Even locally, DS has a dozen or more competitors at every event. Obviously not literally the most well-subscribed class, but it's hardly on its deathbed. Additionally, there are obviously other cars that can compete against the Integra. I think Bartek won the last two years because he's a decent driver, not because he was in an Integra. And in the last 5 years, the ITR won 3 of them. 

I think it's pretty clear by now the SEB has no intention of moving the Mini S to DS.  If the 135 indeed starts running BS times it'll be in BS before Nationals.  (shrug).  I never said DS was undersubscribed - only less well-subscribed than SS.  That point is hard to argue.

TedDBere:

I've come to the understanding that the Sports Car Club of America is focused on the members, not the cars. 

When 70 national competitors like the cars in a class the way it is (SS) then the SAC and SEB should be careful not to do anything the members are against, ie adding a car that will obsolete those 70 competitors.

However when the class has a rather rare overdog car that the other class competitors can't get, or don't want to get, so they leave the class (DS) then the SAC and SEB look to find ways to make the class more interesting for the members to attract new competitors to the class.

New car classing is about the membership, not the car. IMHO.

From my perspetive as a member, I'd like to see decisions re: classing and pretty much damn near everything else made with an eye to the future rather than with a noose attached to the past.

Adding a new top dog to a class is not inherently bad.  Pissing off a portion of the membership is not inherently bad either (and is rarely avoidable anyway).  The question is whether gutting the class by adding a new car is likely to have a net positive or negative effect on the membership as a whole.

In that context, I would submit that if a new top dog were added to a class of 70 with no other changes, a few would move to the new top dog (happily or not, they'd do it).  A few would stay home.  A few new people will show up with the new car.  A few people from other classes will show up in the new car.  A few will show up with their obsolete cars to prove a point.  A few others will show up in their obsolete cars becuase they know they aren't going to be competitive anyway.  Most will probably move on to other classes, boosting the numbers and improving the health and competitiveness of those classes.  Overall, the class that was just turned on its head will probably see a much smaller turnout.  From the macro level, participation at Nats, Tours and Pros probably won't see a noticable shift.

So, what just happened?  One oversubscribed class of 70 was gutted and replaced by a class of 20 or so the first year, with maybe half in the new car and half in old cars.  Meanwhile, the other 8 stock classes see about 4-6 new competitors per class, SP and ST classes get another 1-2 each.  SM and SM2 get a couple.  Maybe Prepared and/or Modified get a little bit of new blood as well.

Is that bad thing for the membership?  If you're one of the 70, I wouldn't be surprised if it looks that way at the time.  If you're one of the other 1000+ people that go to Nationals, maybe you see it a little differently.

Yes, the SEB and BOD are supposed to be looking out for the membership, not a subset of the membership.

When a class is that popular, it is because a lot of people like the way it is and expect it to be somewhat stable.  Blowing up a class like that is not going to have a net good effect like you seem to think, even if all those people do find places to compete anyway.  Where they end up going is their second choice.  And they will lose money and time making the shift.  And a bunch of them are probably about 20% closer to being completely burned out on SCCA autocrossing.

There would have to be a pretty compelling reason to do something to upset participation in a really popular and attractive class.

Remember, the autocross community is not a closed system.  People leave, and people join.  If you make a class that was attractive less attractive, not only will more people leave, but fewer people will join.