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Well, my car doesn't but that's a topic for another time

Agree that it isn't much of a performance trans out of the box (i.e. won't stand up to racing abuse).   It seems to do OK as a towing trans IF you keep the trans fluid cool and don't go aggressive on the torque converter (i.e. the stock 1400 RPM stall converter is good here, aftermarket higher stall is not).   Should stand up similar to a stock trans in a Crown Vic.

Impala SS AutoXer:

Agree that it isn't much of a performance trans out of the box (i.e. won't stand up to racing abuse).   It seems to do OK as a towing trans IF you keep the trans fluid cool and don't go aggressive on the torque converter (i.e. the stock 1400 RPM stall converter is good here, aftermarket higher stall is not).   Should stand up similar to a stock trans in a Crown Vic.

Not even... The 4L60E is the #1 transmission in the repair industry.  Nothing else is really even close.  I wouldn't tow a bicycle with one.  I had a Chevy van with a 4L60 for several years and hated that priece of crap. 

By comparison, the 4R70W (the transmission in the Crown Vic) is one of the most reliable.  When I had my shop, year in - year out, 1/3rd of all of the overhauls we did were 4L60Es.  1 out of every three, three to four units EVERY week.  Our average was one 4R70W a MONTH!  12 per year.  We did more 4L60Es in a month than we did 4R70Ws in a year. 

My Chevy van average 30,000 miles towing between rebuilds.  With all of the updates, heavy duty everything and a big-assed cooler.  It was rebuilt 8 times in 280,000 miles.  My Ford van (an E150 Clubwagon with a 4R70W trans) went 240,000 mostly towing miles before the first overhaul.  And that was a preventative measure.  I noticed the intermediate roller clutch was occasionally releasing so decided to do the trans then before it failed on the road to/from an event.  I installed the updated intermediate drum and mechanical diode, new solenoids, a new torque converter and new servo pistons.   All of the clutches looked like new and were reused. 

 

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Steve Hoelscher
#27 DP - Toyota MR2
2006 DP National Champion
'98, '99, '00, '02 DSP National Champion
http://www.terriehoward.com

No doubt that Steve knows more about transmissions than me but my '94 Suburban has a 4L60E and was still going strong when I pulled it for piece of mind at 195k.  IMO, it has a lot to do with how you drive them.  I kept the fluid changed every year or so and always ran Amsoil ATF in it.  It already had a pretty good trans cooler from the factory.  The guy that rebuilt it said it really looked good inside and could probably have gone another 50k or so.

I had similar results with my '90 Suburban before that one which I think had a 700R4.  Most people consider it to be weaker than the 4L60E.  I sold that one at about 160k and never rebuilt the transmission.

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Mark Pilson
owner of STS2 Honduh
co-driver of HS Subaru (race tires rule)

Crown Vic shares identical drive train with F150.  Crown Vic has 3.23 rear end gears, while F150 goes to 3.73 to 4.1 from factory.  The major problem with crown Vic is its body.  If it can be reinforced on the back, I see no problem of Crown vic towing as much as base F150.

kakarot:

Crown Vic shares identical drive train with F150.  Crown Vic has 3.23 rear end gears, while F150 goes to 3.73 to 4.1 from factory.  The major problem with crown Vic is its body.  If it can be reinforced on the back, I see no problem of Crown vic towing as much as base F150.

 

Important to note here that the Crown Vic is one of the few cars around that still has a full frame.  Its not a uni-body.  Basically, its an F150 with a sedan body. 

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Steve Hoelscher
#27 DP - Toyota MR2
2006 DP National Champion
'98, '99, '00, '02 DSP National Champion
http://www.terriehoward.com

Impala SS AutoXer:

Closely related is the Caddy Fleetwood, which also got the LT1 in 94-96.  It is basically a B-body sedan with a 6" wheelbase stretch.

The tow package Caprice and Roadmaster was rated to tow 5000 lbs, the Fleetwood with tow package was rated to tow 7000 lbs.

There are some screaming deals out there now on 94-96 Fleetwoods.   If I were looking like the oriiginal poster here was looking, I'd find myself a 94-96 Fleetwood and as the only potential mod for towing I'd think about swapping out the factory 2.56 gears (where you'd pretty much be constrained to towing in D) to 3.42s (would let you tow in OD with similar freeway RPM as the 2.56 car in D, but better off-the-line grunt)

That it is a pimp-daddy car inside is just a bonus

Just to add, the 1993 Fleetwood with the L05 is nothing to sneeze at either for towing purposes I think.  Same body style as the 94-96, but the factory tow package gives you 3.73 gears.  94-96 tow package gets you factory 3.42s. 

Indeed, there was a screaming deal in November that I couldn't pass up and I did pick up a 93 Fleetwood myself for half the blue-book value.  With gas prices the way they are now the deals are only getting better.  Didn't buy it to tow anything, but it happens to have that V4P tow package.  It's remarkably quick off the line with the 3.73 gears for a big Caddy. 

That said, once you hook a trailer up to it I don't think it will do any better than a proper truck for fuel efficiency.  The only reason it can get 26 mpg on the highway is because of aerodynamics. 

I like cars better than trucks too and we've been taking the Cadillac on trips instead of our Tahoe lately.  But since the Tahoe is heavier I'd probably still pick the Tahoe if we were towing anything - just to be safe.
 

Steve Hoelscher:

kakarot:

Crown Vic shares identical drive train with F150.  Crown Vic has 3.23 rear end gears, while F150 goes to 3.73 to 4.1 from factory.  The major problem with crown Vic is its body.  If it can be reinforced on the back, I see no problem of Crown vic towing as much as base F150.

 

Important to note here that the Crown Vic is one of the few cars around that still has a full frame.  Its not a uni-body.  Basically, its an F150 with a sedan body. 

 another side note,

while crown vic has definitive frame (not unibody)  the frame is totally different from F150.  I am talking about newer models. Also F150 has leaf springs and Crown vic has coil springs.

While this can turn into a debate, that I would not care much. The crown vic is on top of my list as possible tow vehicle for a small race car, ether FSAE, IT, etc.. or similar, a car under 2500lb, and about 3500lb towing weight.

I will be looking into making/buying a dual axle trailer (to limit load on the car's towing ball), most likly hydralic brakes.

The car mods would consist of:

exhaust and headers, large tranny cooler, set of gauges monitoring critical parts, and obviously a 4.1 or 3.73 diff ratio, and improved rear frame part.

This is all a wish on my side.

For now I am saving 15K for FSAE car.  Then making it, and then if all good, getting a tow rig. 

kakarot:

while crown vic has definitive frame (not unibody)  the frame is totally different from F150.  I am talking about newer models. Also F150 has leaf springs and Crown vic has coil springs.

 

Geesh... I wasn't implying that the Crown Vic uses an F150 frame.  Just that its a full frame as pickups do and uses basically F150 running gear.   Therefore it would make a very capable tow vehicle. 

Down here in God's waiting room, Crown Vics are everywhere.  I regularly see them towing quite substancial travel trailers.

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Steve Hoelscher
#27 DP - Toyota MR2
2006 DP National Champion
'98, '99, '00, '02 DSP National Champion
http://www.terriehoward.com

For a really light race car on an open trailer consider an even smaller "F150" . . . i.e. Mustang V-8. I used to tow my CM car with an 88 Mustang 5.0 with 5 speed manual. All it needed was airlifts to keep the car level and a trailer brake controller. Trailer with race car weighed about 2500 lbs with extra tires and stuff. Airlifts are available for Mustangs through 2004. The 5.0 was a hatchback so it even had room for lots of support stuff (assuming no more than one passenger).

Dick

 This would be cool I think... http://www.flickr.com/photos/37636091@N00/381181161/

 

 

 

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1986 Trueno GT-S (DSP), 1989 Honda Civic Si (HS)
Autocrossing on the cheap.

Davard:

Only a couple of problems with the Magnum. He's on a budget, and try and find a used one with the trailering package.

If you don't mind black and white, a used Crown Vic should have most of the right equipment for cheap. It'll even come with searchlights on the A-pillars.

The older Chevy/Buick have the more powerful LT motor (conservatively rated at 260hp), and can be had as a station wagon, but might be hard to find.

Some random thoughts:

1.  Going the Vic route

 A couple years ago I bought a 97 P71 Interceptor Vic with the intention of making it into a tow vehicle.  Due to running out of room for vehicles and other things, that never materialized.  After some basic upgrades (like Tokico blue shocks) and various maintenance bits, I got rid of it before it even got a hitch. 

Get a P71.  In the hood, shadetree lots of have 'em on every streetcorner, and I believe they have at least one or more auxiliary fluid coolers (crucial for towing).  But, even the P71's had 3.27's.  So I'd get some LT rated tires (remember, this thing rides on near-truck-size tires to begin with!) and 3.73's or something. 

Mileage isn't great (averaged 14 mpg with 50/50 city/highway, lead foot) and watch out for the earlier Vics with the plastic intake manifolds.  They crack and leak from everywhere.  The later ones had reinforced aluminum intakes. 

 

2.  Newer full size trucks are better than sedans as out of the box tow vehicles and get about the same mileage 

My Dodge Ram (4.7 VIN "N"/NV3500/3.55) averaged 14 mpg like the Vic, and it's probably an all-around better tow vehicle than the Vic, with zero upgrades necessary... I got rid of the Ram because I don't have anything to pull for the next year or two, and even at that point 5000+ lbs of towing capacity will be overkill. 

I also had a 4.3L/4L60E/3.23 x-cab sierra 1500; it averaged 15 mpg in murderous traffic, loaded down, and it had 3600# of towing capacity.  Once I had SS brake lines installed, its handling and braking were top-notch (for a truck, anyway).  With a trans cooler and temp gauge it might've be a nice medium tow vehicle with OK mileage.

I have a hunch, no real-world data to back it up, that a late-model 4.2 or 4.6 F150 would get better mileage than either the GM or Dodge, based partly on how the 4R70W? automatic holds gears for longer and upshifts quickly.

 

3. 4cyl compact truck as tow vehicle?

 In the next year or two, I'm going to experiment in stretching my ~2200# MTW 2rz-fe (2.4L)/A340 2000 Tacoma to tow about 2700# (i.e., 500# tow dolly + 2200# civic).  Loaded down (no trailer) I got 24 mpg doing 90 on the highway, and get 22 around town in murderous traffic.  The truck was cheap; as a theft/pick-n-pull recovery, it had a rebuilt title, but mechanically was perfect.

Basic suspension and brake upgrades, aftermarket cruise control, LT rated tires, and an oil/trans cooler (+associated hardware and gauge stuff) are going to run about $1500 before labor.  Assuming labor might be $1500 or so, that's about $3,000 to turn my Tacoma into a cheap, safe, durable, light tow vehicle that also gets decent MPG around town.

 

4. Is it worth spending money on upgrading a compact 4cyl truck when nowadays you could get a REAL truck cheap...

For $3,000 or so, in a year or two, I figure could get a nice, severely depreciated gas-guzzling truck or van with all the heavy duty hardware, trailer towing bits (including the all-important trans cooler) already installed.  Dealers are taking stratospheric losses on big gas guzzling trucks, banks are not doing full financing on anything with a V8, and it's only getting worse.  If you up the price range from $3 large, a 2004+ F150 with the factory tow package (which includes a trans cooler) would be a wonderful, Cadillac-like tow vehicle.

 

5. Astro van - in between a full-size truck and a compact

I'm eyeing some late-model Astro vans with hitches and trans coolers for $3 - 7k.  The size and maneuverability in a crowded urban area is about right, it has benches for the occasional sleep-over, and and lots of secure, dry room for gear and tools. It is built on a truck frame and has good power and load capacity.  Although Steve said the brakes were good, the one we had in the past had scary brakes.

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Adam Wosneski
91 240sx (S13) -- ITS/DSP in 09
Looking for funds, tow vehicle

if you can find an old AMC eagle, those can tow 5k.  I hauled an old '66 mustang from new england to VA with no issues with one of those.  In fact, I recall, I got better mileage with the load than with out.

 

Years ago I was searching for the best functional, high mileage, tow vehicle I could find.  I settled on a Chevy Astro van.  The 4.3 liter V6 had reasonable torque and the box body had lots of room.  It worked pretty well as a tow vehicle but the GM quality issues were a never ending nickle and dime nuisance. 

With some effort, cold air intake, improved exhaust, throttle body spacer and a gear change, I was able to get the mileage up to 16~17 towing on level ground.  That would fall to 14~15 in hilly terrain and mountains.  Cruise speeds limited to 75 mph helped and towing at 80 dropped the mileage significantly.   Brakes were adequate, as was loaded handling.  It was a competent tow vehicle for a fairly light car/trailer combo (3500 lbs). 

The only problem with this van was the rear end and transmission.  The rear end went through bearings and the 4L60E automatic is the one of note disscussed previoulsy.  I replaced it with my Ford van and never looked back. 

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Steve Hoelscher
#27 DP - Toyota MR2
2006 DP National Champion
'98, '99, '00, '02 DSP National Champion
http://www.terriehoward.com

I towed 3500# (stock car and tow dolly w/electric brakes) and a loaded huge trunk and backseat in a 1996 Crown Vic LX with tow package from brand new to 100k pretty much without issue.  The rear diff had to be overhauled at 88k due to worn bearings/whine, but I waited too long between the lube changes on it and blame myself.  I did install an aftermarket cooler on the trans and religiously changed the trans fluid every 15 - 20k.  Always towed in OD for the best mileage.  Towing in D will cut your mileage by 50% at the usual interstate speeds - ouch.  I probably wouldn't recommend exceeding 3500# which may be a stretch for a dual-axle without it being all-aluminum or custom lightweight steel, either of which will likely be open rather than enclosed to achieve that goal.  Otherwise, the CV makes for a very comfortable tow vehicle.  Just set the cruise control and chill out ...

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"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how far you take the wall with you." --Anonymous