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WOW!!!  I can't believe that it's taken a few of you this long to try this whole "no front bar" thing out.  Believe me, I was skeptical at first last year with it because I kept listening to everybody else tell me how crazy evil it would make the car but then I decided to try it (with Jesse Caudill giving me a little prodding) and it turned the car from a pushing nightmare that I hated to drive and had no confidence in, to one of the most fun and rewarding cars I have ever driven and have an absolute blast in! 

Mike, Jason and I were talking about this at warmups at Nats last year and we were pretty surprised that we were a couple of the only ones driving the cars with this setup.  Granted, Ian was using no front bar also, albeit with the stiffer springs up front.

As for alignment adjustments and settings, I'd love to share mine but I've kind of become the odd man out with my settings compared to everyone else, but I feel it works great for me.

Sorry for the rant, figured I'd just share a thought! 

  

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Tim Herron
#195 STS2
'91 CRX Si

Tim, I can't believe you'd go and rant like that... you should really watch your internet tone.  :)  <-- see the smiley?  That means I'm kidding.

What if we lived in a world where we shared all of our tuning ideas and the theories behind them?  Crazy hunh?

Tim Herron:

As for alignment adjustments and settings, I'd love to share mine but I've kind of become the odd man out with my settings compared to everyone else, but I feel it works great for me.

Sorry for the rant, figured I'd just share a thought! 

  

 

Tim, your advice about positive camber is really working out great. my braking performance is incredible!, sweepers and slaloms... Grip for MILES! I love it! The stock rear bar really lets the rear hook up! Thanks again!

 

Matt

Glad to hear it!!

BTW, how's that whole negative caster setup going?  And I'm sure that the 1/2" positive front toe setting is working wonders also. HAHA!!

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Tim Herron
#195 STS2
'91 CRX Si

glagola1:

Tim, I can't believe you'd go and rant like that... you should really watch your internet tone.  :)  <-- see the smiley?  That means I'm kidding.

What if we lived in a world where we shared all of our tuning ideas and the theories behind them?  Crazy hunh?

Ha!! Yeah I know...I really gotta watch my attitude on the net...

And yes, that would be awesome if all of us shared our ideas...but there are some who won't because they still think it might take away their chances on winning that $15 jacket 

Of course, I'd like to win one myself  Just one...

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Tim Herron
#195 STS2
'91 CRX Si

accordHS22:

0 toe up front

Not what the alignment rack says today, appears the car is toed out significantly.  I wonder if I botched up something replacing the bushings.  I know the radius rod on the driver's side was a pain to get aligned properly.  On that note, I have an Si front bar with brand new bushings for sale if anyone wants it. 
  

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The Brown Sean

1988 Honda CRX Si (STS2 #48)

Not DFL at DC!

Tim Herron:

As for alignment adjustments and settings, I'd love to share mine but I've kind of become the odd man out with my settings compared to everyone else, but I feel it works great for me.

I bet my settings are weirder than your settings :)

This will change in the next week, but here is what it was:

Front
2.7 camber
2.5neg caster
.1deg toe out total

Rear
3.8 camber
.1deg toe in total

 Ian

 

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--CRX Addict
--Recovered Mini Addict

ibaker:

Tim Herron:

As for alignment adjustments and settings, I'd love to share mine but I've kind of become the odd man out with my settings compared to everyone else, but I feel it works great for me.

I bet my settings are weirder than your settings :)

This will change in the next week, but here is what it was:

Front
2.7 camber
2.5neg caster
.1deg toe out total

Rear
3.8 camber
.1deg toe in total

 Ian

 

 

Whatever man.  I wonder if this is as accurate as your spring rate summary last year.

3.8 degrees in the rear?  Dang 

Negative caster??  can you even do that?

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Jay Ruggles
#97 STS2 CRX "Lil Evil"

Yup. Ended up that way on the Miata after replacing all the bushings and eyeballing the alignment. It was... uh... not fun. It was 3.5 degrees positive.  Talk about 'vague'

 

edited because I can't talk and type at the same time LOL


 

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Andrew
STS2 114 - 1992 Miata

glagola1:

3.8 degrees in the rear?  Dang 

Salem last year I had -4 close to -5, Marteen commented about the rear tires looking weird so we checked it.  Decided to try it for an event, the car was amusing to drive.  We ended up dialing it back because it ate through the street tires on the 400 mile trip. 
 

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The Brown Sean

1988 Honda CRX Si (STS2 #48)

Not DFL at DC!

glagola1:

Whatever man.  I wonder if this is as accurate as your spring rate summary last year.

3.8 degrees in the rear?  Dang 

LOL, that was totally my fault. It was pretty late when I put the springs on the car and I just never went back and checked that I had indeed put what I thought I put on there. It wasn't until I was packing up all the extra springs for national that I realized I still had the 700's in a box.

And for springs this year
LF: 600
RF: 550
LR: 500
RR: 450

As for the rear camber, much past 4deg and you better be getting a good bit of roll in the back of the car. Otherwise the rear contact patch never flattens out and the car will always be very loose.  And yes, that should be positive caster in the front :)

thx

Ian
 

Ian
 

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--CRX Addict
--Recovered Mini Addict

I am guessing different spring rates to get as close as possible to a "perfect" corner balance? 

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The Brown Sean

1988 Honda CRX Si (STS2 #48)

Not DFL at DC!

I was just about to reply about you above stated caster of -2.5 but I figured you were meaning positive.  As for the rest of your alignment settings, we're actually closer than you think, with the exception of front toe...

Front:

-3.0 degrees camber

3.1 degrees caster

-.60 front toe (about 1/4" toe out)

 

Rear:

-3.0 degrees camber

0 rear toe

I've tried going with more camber in rear and with less camber in rear (as well as front)  But with the big rear bar and ride height setting there's too much roll resistance to make any more camber useful.  It makes the car loose instead.  As for less rear camber, the car just doesn't seem as responsive in transitions with less than -2.9 to -3.0.

Although, unlike you, I haven't tried any other spring settings.  Can you tell me, does it seem to make any difference that you can tell running those staggered spring settings side to side?  Or is it still research at this point...

Inquiring minds want to know

 

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Tim Herron
#195 STS2
'91 CRX Si

Okay, silly question, but are you adjusting the caster on your STS2 CRX's or just measuring and reporting the setting?

 I plan to measure mine tomorrow and see how it compares to the values shared (thanks btw).

 If anyone would like to PM this new guy to the STS2 scene with guidance on caster or share on the forums for others too, that would be great.

 Steve

 

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Steve Curran
'89 CRX Si STS2
"Zippy"

rotation:

Okay, silly question, but are you adjusting the caster on your STS2 CRX's or just measuring and reporting the setting?

 I plan to measure mine tomorrow and see how it compares to the values shared (thanks btw).

 If anyone would like to PM this new guy to the STS2 scene with guidance on caster or share on the forums for others too, that would be great.

 Steve

 

Personally, I'm just reporting what the caster ended being.  You can, however, add shims behind the radius rod sleeve to reduce caster.  However, not many wanting to do that.  You can also cut the radius rod sleeve a bit shorter which will pull caster more positive if needed.  However, this is a supposed no-no from what I hear in STS2 because you are modifying the radius rods position outside of an approved serviceable means (ie. modifying suspension attachment points)  Although I could be wrong.  Anyone car to clarify...

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Tim Herron
#195 STS2
'91 CRX Si

rotation:

Okay, silly question, but are you adjusting the caster on your STS2 CRX's or just measuring and reporting the setting?

 I plan to measure mine tomorrow and see how it compares to the values shared (thanks btw).

 If anyone would like to PM this new guy to the STS2 scene with guidance on caster or share on the forums for others too, that would be great.

 Steve

 

 

Steve, I see that you're signed up for the midwest Divisional in KC this weekend.  I look forward to meeting you this weekend and we can talk about all things STS2 if you'd like...

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Tim Herron
#195 STS2
'91 CRX Si

Tim Herron:

Can you tell me, does it seem to make any difference that you can tell running those staggered spring settings side to side?  Or is it still research at this point...

My input on setup for any car is almost worthless, as I'm still learning to communicate what the car does.... but I can definitely say that pre-spring change (practice runs @ dixie tour) the car felt entirely different without a passenger than post-spring change (hershey). if anything the difference /should/ be felt in left vs. right hand corners, and i can't comment on that, but i do know that post spring change it feels just as good without a passenger. (whereas before, i almost had to have a passenger to keep it straight). that COULD BE just me.

 

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Carrie
'89 STS2 CRX Si (Thanks Ian!)
'88 STS2 CRX Si (it's heeeeee---eeere!)
'93 ES MR2 in L1 on occaision (Thanks Jerry!)

Tim Herron:

Personally, I'm just reporting what the caster ended being.  You can, however, add shims behind the radius rod sleeve to reduce caster.  However, not many wanting to do that.  You can also cut the radius rod sleeve a bit shorter which will pull caster more positive if needed.  However, this is a supposed no-no from what I hear in STS2 because you are modifying the radius rods position outside of an approved serviceable means (ie. modifying suspension attachment points)  Although I could be wrong.  Anyone car to clarify...

This would only be legal if you can successfully argue it as being an offset bushing (which is legal).  Is the sleeve part of the bushing?  The big washer? If so, modifying them would be legal.  Kinda grey, IMO.

There are other ways to achieve caster adjustment which are more clearly legal.  Think about it...

Personally, my Civics have always had caster that was pretty close side-to-side, so I just leave it alone.  Camber is another story...

--Andy

 

you could get the same affect by using different thickness bushings on either side of the cross member.