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Seems like a bad business practice to me.

Do we REALLY think this many people would have bought Minis had there been no contingengy and warranties not honored for day one? Not likely. If the car is not supported by the manufacturer for running around a parking lot, its less likely that  performance oriented buyers will buy one.

Look at the Mini owners, there are 2 types. One  that buys the car and thinks its cute and gets me to work and back. Two, someone who bought it because they like the performance AND the looks and may have a bolt on or two, or a few tidbits on the car, who may take a corner at over 0.7Gs here and there....and thought the fact that people race them and do this thing called autocross was neat. "So I can run my mini around cones like at a go kart track? Cool" If this was the warranty practice and Chiles, Craig, Jeff, ETC. had not run the cars all over the USA and given them the publicity, would it have reached the sales status it has to this day?

I dunno....maybe yes...maybe no. I'm not saying everything SHOULD be covered, but at least give the guy a warning. "Hey we'll fix this now, but not again."

Also, what portion of the warranty are they voiding? Is it in writing? I know dealers here in TX threaten and talk, but when they are demanded to put it in writing or hear from my lawyer they usually back down.

marka:

Howdy,

CamaroFS34:

Mark, if the car is marketed as a competition car -- and we've all seen pictures of Jeff Jacobs's car in Mini ads online, not to mention a lot of the auto mag ads with cut-out cones, etc. -- then it's irresponsible (and possibly illegal) of the company to deny warranty because of something they market the car of being capable of handling.

Of course, I've noticed that with the exception of Mitsubishi, a lot of these denial-of-warranty claims come from companies that offer significant contingencies and market their cars aggressively as "race car in street trim." I think Mazda is an exception in the opposite (good) direction.

Bullcrap.  Take the motorcycle industry as the canonical example here.  Every sportbike made is marketed in large part by factory racing efforts & privateer contingency programs.  But if you try and make a warranty claim on your racebike, they'll laugh you out of the shop and rightfully so.

I'm pretty sure Toyota wouldn't provide coverage on your Tundra if you were out in the desert driving it across railroad track bridges or avoiding large swinging I beams either.

Marketing is marketing.  What the warranty says is what the warranty says.  I suppose you could sue Mini and claim that the advertising for the car overrided what they explicitly say in the warranty, but I'll bet $100 you'll also lose.

This also isn't a case of "joe public" hitting a couple autocrosses... This is someone competing with the car on a national level and getting support from Mini directly to do so.  There's a paperwork trail WITHIN MINI USA that documents the warranty invalidation.

Don't get me wrong... I'd think it would be good for Mini to support autocrossers by continuing to honor the warranty.  But to claim they're "stabbing you in the back" when all they're doing is following what they've officially said they'll do is more than a little over the top to me.

Mark
 

Mark

 I will give you the benefit of the doubt, you must not have read my post entirely, it was very long.  Anyway, I spoke directly with the MiniUSA Motorsports head guy, Jeff S, who is also very high up in MINIUSA, he specifically stated that my warranty would never be affected by autocrossing my Mini.  Unfortunately Jeff S is no longer head of MiniUSA Motorsports, and, MiniUSA Motorsports division is the one that emailed my dealer as proof that I "raced" my Mini as justification to mess with my warranty.  I think that clearly states why I feel I was stabbed in the back by MiniUSA. ;-)
 

Hey Craig, when did you ever autocross YOUR Mini? *wink, wink* From what I see in the results they love to quote from, there is no incidence of a VIN# of the car you were driving. Just because YOU autocross, does not mean you autocross YOUR Mini. Personally, I would just deny ever using YOUR Mini in autocrosses. Now if they come up with pictures of your car with your license plate, that may be enough to establish that you autocrossed your very own Mini, but without that, all they have is vaguely circumstantial in my opinion. Personally, I think you'd win in a court of law, but is it worth the time and effort? Probably not, and that's what they are hoping for. Just for sh!ts and grins though, I'd keep pushing it. What's the worst that could happen, they'd cancel your warranty? Wait, too late. Thanks for the update, though! Was thinking about running a Mini sometime next year, but now I won't be.

-Mike King

And NO, I've never autocrossed my own car....
 

Forget about OasisT being one of the better known mini autocrossers in the country, I think he's the BEST mini customer in the country How many of those things have you bought?  I think they owe you a repair just out of sheer volume of cars purchased

Anyhow regardless of legality, I feel that it's very hypocritical for a car company to encourage autocrossing (or other forms of motorsports) through advertising or contingency, and then deny warranty coverage because of it.

Davebs14:

Also, what portion of the warranty are they voiding? Is it in writing? I know dealers here in TX threaten and talk, but when they are demanded to put it in writing or hear from my lawyer they usually back down.

To date, I have nothing in writing other than a note under my vehicle VIN showing that Jeff White labeled my car as being raced.  I have left messages and have requested an official letter in regards to this issue, nothing has surfaced to date.  The 2 emails sent to my dealer from MiniUSA and the Motorsports division are now labeled as MiniUSA property and he was told not to forward those emails to me, but, he did read them to me during our phone conversations, thats how I know for sure that the Motorsports guy really did email him my contingency info since he listed specific events/dates.  My dealer basically said that anything functional that could be labeled as abused would be labeled as abused and therefore not covered.  Thats a far cry from being told my warranty would never be affected by autocrossing by the head of the MiniUSA motorsports division.

SoloTiresdotCom:

Hey Craig, when did you ever autocross YOUR Mini? *wink, wink* From what I see in the results they love to quote from, there is no incidence of a VIN# of the car you were driving. Just because YOU autocross, does not mean you autocross YOUR Mini. Personally, I would just deny ever using YOUR Mini in autocrosses. Now if they come up with pictures of your car with your license plate, that may be enough to establish that you autocrossed your very own Mini, but without that, all they have is vaguely circumstantial in my opinion. Personally, I think you'd win in a court of law, but is it worth the time and effort? Probably not, and that's what they are hoping for. Just for sh!ts and grins though, I'd keep pushing it. What's the worst that could happen, they'd cancel your warranty? Wait, too late. Thanks for the update, though! Was thinking about running a Mini sometime next year, but now I won't be.

 

-Mike King

And NO, I've never autocrossed my own car....

Unfortunately, I mentioned that since my dealer was saying that MiniUSA mentioned I was "racing" my car.  I accurately denied that I had ever done so.  Thats when the Motorsports guy emailed my dealer with the "proof" with my VIN attached to the contingency form from Nats. ;-(  I would take it to court, but, I figure, if they don't want me autocrossing Mini's any longer, I will just warn others of what they have done to me and simply walk away and spend my time learning how to co-drive a 500hp Evo as well as my new Miata in CS rather than expending any efforts in forcing Mini to honor my warranty. ;-)    

Howdy,

OasisTan:

Mark

 I will give you the benefit of the doubt, you must not have read my post entirely, it was very long.  Anyway, I spoke directly with the MiniUSA Motorsports head guy, Jeff S, who is also very high up in MINIUSA, he specifically stated that my warranty would never be affected by autocrossing my Mini.  Unfortunately Jeff S is no longer head of MiniUSA Motorsports, and, MiniUSA Motorsports division is the one that emailed my dealer as proof that I "raced" my Mini as justification to mess with my warranty.  I think that clearly states why I feel I was stabbed in the back by MiniUSA. ;-)

Well, I'd say that you got stabbed in the back by Jeff S, since he apparently told you something without documentation.  Either he just flat out lied or didn't document what he agreed to with you.  I bet the warranty also has words in there to the effect of "this warranty can't be modified by what some Mini *** says" (in legalese). (edit:  "s c h m u c k" is a bad word?  Really?)

Dude, the situation sucks, particularly that you asked a question and the guy either lied to you or at a minimum didn't document anything.  But I can't help thinking that you asked the question, got an answer that sounded good to you, and then just dropped it despite what the warranty said in black and white.  Do you have any documentation on what Jeff S. said?  If you do, sue the bastards. (edit: "bastards" is apparently a-ok!)  Jeff S. certainly shouldn't have told you something that wasn't true.

But I still think its Jeff S. playing fast and loose, not Mini USA entirely.

Mark

(btw, no, I don't own a Mini. I'd considered one at one point, but a combination of circumstances (including shoddy treatment of another autocrosser by Mini of Pittsburgh or whatever they're called) kept me from buying one.  I have no love for Mini.  Its just that every half year or so, someone new posts something about how some manufacturer sucks because they followed what they set out in the warranty and it annoys me.)

Howdy,

SoloTiresdotCom:

Hey Craig, when did you ever autocross YOUR Mini? *wink, wink* From what I see in the results they love to quote from, there is no incidence of a VIN# of the car you were driving. Just because YOU autocross, does not mean you autocross YOUR Mini. Personally, I would just deny ever using YOUR Mini in autocrosses. Now if they come up with pictures of your car with your license plate, that may be enough to establish that you autocrossed your very own Mini, but without that, all they have is vaguely circumstantial in my opinion. Personally, I think you'd win in a court of law, but is it worth the time and effort? Probably not, and that's what they are hoping for. Just for sh!ts and grins though, I'd keep pushing it. What's the worst that could happen, they'd cancel your warranty? Wait, too late. Thanks for the update, though! Was thinking about running a Mini sometime next year, but now I won't be.

 

-Mike King

And NO, I've never autocrossed my own car....
 

Yeah!  Because fraud is ok if the target is a corporation!

:-)

Mark

(the worst that could happen, to me, seems to be being convicted of fraud and put in jail (if he followed your suggestion).) 

Howdy,

Also... I agree that it totally sucks that Jeff whatshisname, as the head of the motorsports division and someone high up in Mini usa, would commit to something that Mini would then recant on even if they're legally correct in doing so.  I'll certainly be interested to hear what Mini USA has to say about it. 

Mark

(hopefully this is a lesson to folks that if an agreement isn't written down, it may not exist when you need it.  So if its an agreement that will screw you if its forgotten about... :-)
 

That bites. I'm of the opinion that if the manufacturer markets/encourages competition as a way to best experience the car they need to clearly state the impact on warranty work. When as in the case of Mini they boldly encourage participation in track days and autocross they need to stand behind their product and support the owners. Reading Craig's posts it sounds like what has him most upset is that he has never been formaly informed that his warranty isn't going to be homored, it was sudden and unexpected (good support from the dealer for years) and nobody will give him a straight up answer on the details.

The Mad Blogger is Dangerous...

dangerous I tell ya

edit: I think some people, due to caching, aren't seeing the same results. I see the #1 results for "mini usa sucks" as a TMB post, and the 5th or 6th result for "Baron Mini" being the same post :)

First: I can't believe Chris would jump on this and trash MINI or anybody else without first doing some research. Like it or not, even on the internet you are part of the electronic media and you have a responsiblity to research your stories before you trash someone or a company. My Pastor taught me something his Dad always preached -"It's a mighty thin thing that doesn't have two sides." 

Second: I have been hand in hand with MINI since we got the franchise in 2002 and they asked me to be on the dealer marketing team. They blame or credit me with being the force behind the racing program at MINI started in 2002. MINI has gone out of their way to be friendly to the Solo and racing community, including sending factory tech reps this year to Topeka to assist MINI competitors (not record serial numbers as some of these non-MINI owners seem to suggest). Vinnie has taken over Jeff's position and is new and enthusiastic (or was until you all started piling on). Vinnie does work for the Sales and Marketing side of the house and not the Service side, but the comapny has a very tight working relationship and customer focus on both sides. Warranties are subject to interpretation. If damaged parts are trashed by abuse or accident, it may not be warranty because of a failure of workmanship, design or assembly. However, someone making a blanket statement that your warranty is void because you autocross, sounds like a mis-guided employee.

Third: I have served on the MINI Dealer Forum and still serve on their Aftersales (parts and service) Forum committee, I'll gladly contact the MINI brass and see if we can get a determination on what the situation is with this repair. If Craig will contact me I'd like to get some more info. Meanwhile, don't let all the guys that you've kicked their butts on the course with your MINI convince you the sky is falling. Rats, I think I hear a black helicopter landing in the backyard right now. Please call me tomorrow at MINI of Charleston 843 402-6400.

Brad

SSCRacer:

First: I can't believe Chris would jump on this and trash MINI or anybody else without first doing some research. Like it or not, even on the internet you are part of the electronic media and you have a responsiblity to research your stories before you trash someone or a company. My Pastor taught me something his Dad always preached -"It's a mighty thin thing that doesn't have two sides." 

Second: I have been hand in hand with MINI since we got the franchise in 2002 and they asked me to be on the dealer marketing team. They blame or credit me with being the force behind the racing program at MINI started in 2002. MINI has gone out of their way to be friendly to the Solo and racing community, including sending factory tech reps this year to Topeka to assist MINI competitors (not record serial numbers as some of these non-MINI owners seem to suggest). Vinnie has taken over Jeff's position and is new and enthusiastic (or was until you all started piling on). Vinnie does work for the Sales and Marketing side of the house and not the Service side, but the comapny has a very tight working relationship and customer focus on both sides. Warranties are subject to interpretation. If damaged parts are trashed by abuse or accident, it may not be warranty because of a failure of workmanship, design or assembly. However, someone making a blanket statement that your warranty is void because you autocross, sounds like a mis-guided employee.

Third: I have served on the MINI Dealer Forum and still serve on their Aftersales (parts and service) Forum committee, I'll gladly contact the MINI brass and see if we can get a determination on what the situation is with this repair. If Craig will contact me I'd like to get some more info. Meanwhile, don't let all the guys that you've kicked their butts on the course with your MINI convince you the sky is falling. Rats, I think I hear a black helicopter landing in the backyard right now. Please call me tomorrow at MINI of Charleston 843 402-6400.

Brad

Brad

Thanks for the post, I appreciate your input, 

Actually, I received a response from Vince this afternoon through email actually.  While Vince was a bit upset with me for going public with this, he said he's working on this issue and has been.  Vince told me 10 or so days ago he was meeting with one of the higher up MiniUSA guys in regards to this issue and he was going to call me the next day after he met with this guy.  Well, I didn't hear anything from him.  In the mean time, my dealer received 2 more negative emails in regards to my warranty from Jeff White, then, the 3rd email with my autocross contingency submissions yesterday from Vince as proof that I autocrossed my Mini.  That one took the cake, my dealer continued to state that MiniUSA was not going to cover anything that could be tagged as abuse.  Sure, Mini would warranty a door handle and a headlight, but, nothing that could be written off as abused.  Sure, if I were to slip the clutch and burn the clutch out on a hill, I'm not going to expect it to be covered, thats common sense.  But, if I had legit issues not related to abuse, the stance MiniUSA is currently taking, I'm not covered, which, is completely not what I was told by Jeff S when I called and spoke with him on this issue.

 As far as contacting them about the current repair, the clutch pedal assembly was replaced by the dealer, but, was originally tagged as abuse.  I made 4 phone calls to the dealer before the dealer finally agreed to replace it.  Hopefully they get paid for that replacement, its obvious a clutch pedal assembly should not squeak and I don't care if I pushed it in 100,000 times as fast as I could, it shouldn't squeak, thats obvious..

Anyway, hopefully this will have a positive resolution for current/future Mini owners.  This is not a pleasant situation for me regardless of the outcome, I don't enjoy this issue one bit and I'll be glad when I'm done with it.

Anyway, I will call you tomorrow sometime.... 

Craig

Craig,

Sorry to hear about all this grief.  I'll cross my fingers that this is resolved quickly and painlessly.  Like you, I've owned more than one MINI:  both an '02 and an '06 Cooper for me.  Why did I buy another one?  Because, like many, I enjoy being able to use my MINI as a dual-purpose vehicle.  For me, it is the perfect vehicle for both daily driving and weekend autocross duty.    It gets me to work even when there's 4" of snow on the road and the ditches are littered with SUVs.  I've achieved as high as 46 MPG on the highway.  And, it can easily haul my R compounds, luggage, air tank, and all the other autocross stuff (including a co-driver) to a National Tour or a ProSolo for a weekend trip - or even an extended trip to Topeka here and there.  Extra bonuses include being *nationally* competitive on the stock wheels, exhaust, and even the stock shocks!  Oh, yeah, and then there's the price.  I've paid roughly $17K to $18K for each of my MINIs, and the resale value is absolutely insane.  The book value on my '02 was still within about 2 grand of what I paid new, after driving it for 50K miles in 4 years.  With the MINI contingency prizes, the car was essentially free of charge.  Put in gas and drive.

But - the manufacturer's and dealer's support was the true icing on this already scrumptious cake.  I'm lucky enough to live within 5 miles of a MINI dealer, and I've had excellent service from them.  The vast majority (if not 100%) of my warranty work on my MINIs has been completely unrelated to autocross (electrical gremlins, interior paint peeling, seat latches, rattles, etc.).  The only warranty work which may have been related to autocross was the replacement of the transmission in my '02, but the early Midlands units were definitely problematic, and I paid to have the clutch replaced when the trans was out, as I know that 3 years of autocross launches were definitely harder than average street usage, so I felt that this was my responsibility to cover this wear item.  The dealer never questioned anything when I requested repairs under warranty for any items.

Ironically, I'd be willing to bet that the average MINI autocrosser takes *far* better care of their vehicle than the typical US driver.  I change my oil every 3K miles with full synthetic and factory filters.  I check my alignment specs and suspension condition regularly.  Flush the brake fluid every year with a pressure bleeder.  3 coats of wax a year.  Heck, I even rotate my tires regularly - probably about 15 times on Sundays during the summer months!    You get the idea:  we're fanatics.  Do we incur more warranty work than the average MINI owner?  I know tons of MINI owners from our local club, and I'd be willing to bet that they incur just as much warranty work as an autocrosser.

Craig - thanks again for letting us know about this.  We look forward to the updates.