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He was very nice, Is that car from ner region originally?

     Combining dm and em is something they should have done a long time ago. Even if i'm at the high end of the weight classes. (1800lbs)

Yes, that car was owned by Mark Chessick for many years.  He sold it so he could start work on a car that he's wanted to build for a long time.

Combining D and EM sounds like a slam dunk but actually doing it in an equitable way is not an easy task at all.

Jim

After reviewing 2003-2007 Tour/Nationals data (http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/268488.aspx), it looks as though "new" modified competitors are choosing FM and F125 over CM. Over the period, the data shows upward/steady trends for FM/F125. During same period, CM trends downward. The question is will any of these "new" competitors eventually switch to a CM FF1600/S2000.

Excellent question Pru. 

Perhaps one issue swaying people toward FM is the perceived expense differences between C and F (yeah, F125 is really inexpensive, I'll quickly concede).  I think you can get a "so-so" FM car cheaper than a "so-so" CM car.  But once you ante up for a competitive car, I don't see the dollar difference.  Does anyone care to comment on that, whether you endorse CM or FM?

I can also think of 4 or 5 competitors who did not show up recently for various personal reasons.  But that still doesn't get us back to 30+ National Championship field we had shortly after the CM/FM split.

Then there are those 10 or so CM cars in Ky Region who don't come ...    Maybe some day? 

All I can say to anyone reading this is that CM is a really good class.  Good people, all willing to lend help whether it be parts, mechanical, or advice.  Neat cars that are easy to work on and a real thrill to drive.  And the cars have history, if that's something that means something to you.

 As for possible Solo Vee performance updates ... those have been ongoing for many years.  And they continue still.  I understand the investment issue, but at some point maybe  a few Vee owners would be ready to make the switch and pick up a known competitive chassis.

 Here's hoping ....
 

I am one of the new FM competitors and I have a SoloVee.  Well, two actually.  The combined cost of the cars and a trailer was less than the cost of a good CM.  Either car is capable of trophying at Nats as they sit.  They cannot win against the 500's, though.

You ask if we can be convinced to switch to CM.  The answer is no.  Solovees which have not been updated will be  next to impossible to sell.  And the updates will be much cheaper than buying a FF or S2.  I talked to my engine builder today and the cost of updating my 1600's to 1915's will be less than $800.  That's for both engines.  Adding an lsd, if we decide it's needed, is about the same or less.  Most of the chassis changes are not needed but are in the rules so that the Formula First guys can come play.  The most useful chassis change is the allowance for disk brakes, and that is mostly because we won't have to adjust them all the time.

I can have a pro engine builder rebuild and dyno my engines for about $800 each.  What does a rebuild cost for a Ford 1600?  I bet I can buy a race prepped VW transaxle  for less than you guys pay for a complete set of four gears.

There is push among the F500 club racers to move to 600 cc motorcycle engines and with the integral transmissions.  If that happens, I believe the F600's would be in BM and the F500's would go with them.  The 440's might stay in FM.

Maybe some day, I'll sell one of the Vees and buy a CM.  I've wanted one since 1973.  It won't be soon, though.
 

Assuming same run group, how do CM and the two types of FM cars compare? That is, is it "time" to recombine the classes? Previously, especially at Forbes, FF1600's would hold the top few spots but then it seemed the rest of us were similar. Of course, by now the FM's might be too fast for the FF1600's. Even so, it might really help the class locally in a lot of areas to give people the choice and the "in class" competition. I miss the F440 that frequently (usually?) would beat me locally (but fortunately for me didn't do as well when we went to Pro's and Tours/Nationals).  I learned a LOT chasing David Frye's F440 and later his S2000.

FYI at a Virginia Motor Sport Club Event Sunday 3 cars (5 drivers) were CM FF1600's. One of the drivers was scheduled to drive his family A Mod car but it broke. He showed the rest of us how fast my car is . . .  There were a total of 41 drivers at the event at Virginia Motorsports Park. CM put on quite a show. Due to codrivers and 6 runs per driver there seemed to be a CM car on course every couple of minutes in a 20 driver heat.

P.S. CM got the top two PAX times.

Dick

CM 85

I spent a fair amount of time looking at both CM and FM (F500) before deciding to start down the black hole that is XP.  There were two big factors that made FM far more attractive to me, versus CM.

1. Availability of chassis for larger drivers.  There are a couple good F500 chassis with enough space for larger drivers, whereas going with an S2000 seemed to limit the options and up the cost quite a bit.

2.  There are a lot of purpose-built, hard-to-find parts on CM cars.  I'm not saying impossible to find, but definitely more expensive and "call the mail-order company"  kind of parts.  And most of the FF's used in autox are cars too old to be competitive in road racing any more, which means parts are even less available.  On the other hand, those of us in the Northern states literally have F500 parts sitting everywhere.  The engine & drivetrain parts are are cheap, plentiful & easy to work on.   I have dozens of sled mechanics within 30 minutes of my house, whereas I'm not sure we have a single active FF mechanic in the area. 

Not trying to bash the CM cars - they're very elegant, purpose-built machines.   The current CM cars just seem to have characteristics that are keeping new blood away.

I think it's a question of visabillity and image.  There is a lot of advertising and press for go-fast parts for cars that are still slow, even after you plow tons of money into them, but still it gives the cars visabillity.  Maybe the low tech, low output engine doesn't have the image of a small engine turning out lots of hp, but it's a bolt it in and forget it part in CM.  Low turnouts also tend to feed on themselves though and it seems like the big name drivers are typically running on street tires these days.

 There are lots of great things about these cars.  You can spend $10,000 to buy a FF, put in $3000 over 5 years, be nationally competitive and still sell the car for $10,000.  Or, you could spend at least 4 times that on a SS car, go slower and lose $20,000 when you sell it.  I towed a FF with an Audi 4000.  I think it had around 118 hp and I know it would pull the FF over 85.  What percent of F125's are putting out full power on any particular day?  You can bolt on a new carb for a FF and it will still be working fine 4 years later.

It seems like there's a need to get to beginning autocrossers and people who have never entered.  More people should be thinking about driving them someday.  People should write articles for their region newsletters.  How about a round robin of 3 drivers swapping cars.  One from Stock, one from Street Touring and one from Mod?  Maybe an article in a sport tuning magazine on a trully different import.  I always thought it would be fun to take a couple of FF's bracket racing.  That might generate some interest.

 Peter Raymond

Peter,

Honestly, I think you're looking in the wrong place to recruit drivers.  Most Stock & ST-class drivers aren't a great target demographic for prepared or mod cars.  The subset of autocrossers that prefer a "real" race car is always going to comprise a limited percentage of autocross competitors, for a variety of reasons.  IMHO it's not realistic to think the percentage of total mod drivers will significantly change.  Therefore, it comes down to CM getting a lower percentage of those mod drivers than in years past.  As Andy said, F125 and FM appear to be the primary classes taking drivers away from CM - not Stock or ST. 

Unfortunately, the situation may get worse for the FF's in the next few years, as early bike engine-based cars retire from road-racing.   In a few years, there should be plenty of old CSR/DSR cars on the market - really fast vehicles with engines that are reliable and exceedingly available.  Given the popularity of sport bikes among my autocross friends, I'd be very worried that bike-based mod cars will significantly change the face of mod in a few years. 

Steve,

I agree that there are a limited number of drivers going into the mod classes.  You have to show them that CM is a great class before they make the shift.  Once they enter F125, or FM, it's usually too late.  You want to hit them before they're even thinking seriously about moving.  That way, when they're ready, CM is the first class they think of.  They don't want to spend their time tuning engines and belt drives and they don't want to spend their time bouncing around the course.  Instead they want an affordable, reliable, fast car that does everything you want it to.  You want CM to be the class that makes them think about moving, not just one of the choices.

 The question then becomes, where do future mod drivers come from?  How soon can you influence them?  I thought that most of those drivers are probably starting in Stock or ST, but the best time to influence them, if you can, would be even before they start autocrossing.  It would be great if CM was their first exposure to the sport.  It might be years before they joined the class, but they would be starting out with that positive impression.

Maybe the first step is to talk to FM and F125 drivers and find out where they came from, then use that information to go talk to the future mod drivers.

Some classes have improved their numbers just by making noise.  It won't work every time in every region, but some classes have spent some time talking about what they like about their cars and what they like about their class and that has gotten other people interested.  A class that can do that shows cohesion and enthusiasm.  Both of those are big parts of a good class.

Nationals numbers drive a lot of things too.  Even a well publicized CM party and some other activities might encourage some people to show up in Topeka that were on the fence about going.  It doesn't hurt that it can be a good time too.  D and Emod had a cookout out by the trailers a few years ago.  Even though there was tension in the class back then about rules interpretations, I think it helped the classes.

Peter Raymond

Peter Raymond:

...The question then becomes, where do future mod drivers come from?  How soon can you influence them?  I thought that most of those drivers are probably starting in Stock or ST, but the best time to influence them, if you can, would be even before they start autocrossing.  It would be great if CM was their first exposure to the sport.  It might be years before they joined the class, but they would be starting out with that positive impression...

Peter, I was considering a Mod car. But to easily get into a Mod class, I looked at bike motored cars. That put me into B-Mod with all the sports racers, and aero. Because I wasn't willing to make the triple leap (new type of car, new to aero, new to Mod class) I decided to go to D-Prepared in a Miata. If there was a place for bike motored cars to play in a non-aero class I'd be in Mod this year. I'm still considering it, and spoke to you at Nationals about putting a production automotive engine in my existing bike motored LLa7 chassis or building another one for it.

I'm not sure what the concerns are regarding reliability or getting used to the class with CM. Many of us came directly from either Stock or barely Street Prepared so it just took a few events to get comfortable with the extra speed and maybe half a season (for slow learners like me) to get really comfortable with the speed. Setup is easy for most formula fords since the cars respond very well and you don't need to play tricks with shocks, etc due to rule restrictions like Stock. Engines last years and years. Once you settle on your favorite set of gear ratios they also last years, if not "forever". Other stuff is basically no maintenance for many years other than basics like flush the brake fluid every year, change oil once in awhile, etc. like you do with every car. No aero, lots of torque (relative to HP), etc. so they are easy to drive. Tires are relatively small and less expensive than for many production based cars and they "age out" long before cords show so you can keep running them until you feel the need to get more grip.

Dick

CM 85

One of the big advantages that was being sold for F125 was how cheap and simple the package is. Little tires and dirtbike engines sure make it sound like a great deal. I've watched the F125 action in my local region (washington DC) and while it sure does look like a hoot, and you really can't go faster for less, simple and cheap aren't two words I'd use to describe it. Tires are definitely cheap, no question. I think they get them in the bulk food aisle between jordan almonds and peanut butter cups. But the engines seem to be tuned within an inch of their life and need frequent attention. At each event the F125 drivers set up their "compound" and the karts seem to be constantly under the knife. That's not how I like to spend my day at an event. The karts themselves aren't exactly cheap, either. I've never driven one, but it sure seems like a question of chaos-management while out on course, too.  

 Ultimately, I'm with A.H. I like to drive my racecar on the street, even if it's just once in a while. If I did ever decide to go with a mod class, CM would be on my list for sure. As would EM, DM, and BM. The sportbike engined sports racers are just cool as hell, though I bet they are still very pricey. For now I'll just shovel my money into my SP car.

MNbiker:

2.  There are a lot of purpose-built, hard-to-find parts on CM cars.  I'm not saying impossible to find, but definitely more expensive and "call the mail-order company"  kind of parts. 

This isn't the case. I came directly from stock category into CM so I understand this fear.    If you've got a Reynard, Crossle, Van Dieman and others, there is very little difficulty obtaining parts.  For my Citation, some parts are ready and waiting but for those that are not, the car's manufacturer is still in business and if I tell him what I need, he can easily make it at a reasonable cost. 

Brake rotors are made by several manufacturers.  LD19 calipers are all over the place as are pads.  Tranny parts are Hewland and are also literally on the shelf waiting.  Engine parts are on the shelf.  Shocks too.  Wheels, tires are standard.  What's left?  Uprights and other suspension pieces might be on the shelf for some models and if not can readily be made by a wide variety of sources. 

The thing is, not much breaks on these cars because we are not subjecting them to the constant abuse that they were designed for.

This applies to the engines too.  Yes, rebuilds (if done through a pro builder) are on the expensive side but how often to C Modders rebuild engines?  Not often!

MNbiker:

  And most of the FF's used in autox are cars too old to be competitive in road racing any more, which means parts are even less available 

Some of the cars used are eligble for Club Ford, a thriving road race class.  For the non Club Fords, my earlier paragraphs apply.  I think the fears represented in the quotes above are understandable and reasonable but once looked into are unfounded.

It's a great class.  Come on out and play!

Something else to consider and it happens in all classes.  When you look to move up to a faster car, like a Mod car, or class, Prep or Mod, some people look at competition.  As in, will I be going into a class of 1 or a class or 5?  Will I have someone to run against week after week?  In the case of this thread if you have no other CM's in your region, you won't really be pushed to go faster.  Thus less motivation.  

I know people who didn't go into a class (or change classes with a restructuring) because they would have no direct competition.  We had a FV in CM 15 years ago.  We had several FF's and I think 3 F440's in our region at that time, so CM was popular in N. Texas.  The next year the FV was going to DM, and in our region we had no one else running DM.  So we looked around and got a F440 (the same one we are still running today as a F500) to stay in CM and with competition.  We didn't go with a FF for several reasons.  Initial cost, maintenance cost and the fact that my dad does all the work on the car and he didn't want to shift anymore.

In my opinion, FM owners are more likely to modify and improve their cars, they are tinkerers (sp?), and that is what my dad likes about our car.  The newer cars keep coming up with new ideas and keep going faster so the older cars get modified, to make them better.  Not sure how much FF's are changed over their lifetime, or if they are even able to.

 Gary Kramar

Gary,

Good points about needing/wanting other cars for local competition. In my early years in CM there was a fast local F440 that I chased most of the time which helped me learn but even so I needed to go to Pro Solo's (CM had a lot of Pro Solo entrants for a couple of years in the East and Midwest) and Tours to get a sense of what the class was capable of.

That said, have you noticed that in many classes, including Stock, that many local drivers will change classes so they do NOT have to run against the fast guy(s)? Some areas will encourage fast drivers to run an index "pro" class to give the slow guys a chance in the regular class. Seems strange to me since my approach was to look for a class with strong competition so I could learn and, hopefully, ultimately beat those guys.

Dick

Dick Rasmussen:

Gary,

That said, have you noticed that in many classes, including Stock, that many local drivers will change classes so they do NOT have to run against the fast guy(s)? Some areas will encourage fast drivers to run an index "pro" class to give the slow guys a chance in the regular class. Seems strange to me since my approach was to look for a class with strong competition so I could learn and, hopefully, ultimately beat those guys.

Dick

Not really, or at least, not that I have noticed.

Gary

Jim G:

Some of the cars used are eligble for Club Ford, a thriving road race class.  For the non Club Fords, my earlier paragraphs apply.  I think the fears represented in the quotes above are understandable and reasonable but once looked into are unfounded.

It's a great class.  Come on out and play!

Clarification - I wouldn't classify my comments as "fears".  I've been around enough CM cars & drivers in Milwaukee Region to have a pretty good handle on the cars.  My observations undoubtedly do reflect the Minneapolis/Saint Paul area I live in.  Since the closest active SCCA road racing track i s over 5 hours away, we simply don't have an active base of FF road rac