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snaponbob:

Since hairs are being split...

As was said before, these are not hairs.  These are the National Rules and we all agreed to read them and abide by them whether we like a specific rule or not.  I believe this is why you and I always were always butting heads.  I take the rules seriously and I expect that the person gridded next to me to be the same way. 

snaponbob:

Ahhhh what the hell. With 64 cars in A/Stock, I could rebuild the engine between runs!!!! Almost. So, if I really felt compelled to adjust the rears, I should be able to figure out something!!

We will likely get our own heat or be grouped with another smallish class.  So that will only be about 15-20 minutes between runs. 

NickFlynn:

Bob - it's somewhat unpleasant, but if you jack the car up under the diff, you can access the rear adjuster under the fender, above the tire.  (If you have Popeye forearms, maybe not, but a wimpy pencil necked geek like myself can get his skinny hands up in there.

The passenger front also can be gotten to above the wheel if you jack the car a little on that side.   

- Nick 

Thanks, Nick. Really, I mean that.

HPT is REALLY snotty about jacking cars without wood planks under that jack, At least, that is their position. (Nobody can challenge me on this one. It's 90 minutes away and I autocross there.) There is no need to jack up the right front to access the right adjuster (at least on a Sky Redline) as it is directly under the power steering reservoir, and there is not enough room for the supplied tool from Koni. But a needle nose plier can be used. Quickly moving the reservoir is also quite easy. (And I can find NO rules against that, thank god!!!) Given that the Royals/Chiefs stadium is only a bit grippier than HPT, I will be able to get the back set for HPT. I'll know for sure at the Sunday T&T. Then I will just tweak the fronts. I do plan on fashioning some sort of tool form the rears. (Think wingnut.)

Now, considering that I apparently live (and read words) in an alternate universe, maybe everyone can pile on about 3.3.3.A.4, and 13.3.H. How is THAT enforced, and ultimately proven by the participant is protested? (I lived through just that issue "back in the day" [post Conestoga Wagon, but not much] on a local protest in Washington, D.C. - I prevailed)

At the risk of being accused of thread jacking, I will be glad to start a thread if needed.

SpyderVenom:

snaponbob:

Since hairs are being split...

As was said before, these are not hairs.  These are the National Rules and we all agreed to read them and abide by them whether we like a specific rule or not.  I believe this is why you and I always were always butting heads.  I take the rules seriously and I expect that the person gridded next to me to be the same way. 

 As do I. And if you think otherwise, I will be easy to find, and I will explain that to you in person. If this book of rules were so damn easy to read, understand, and interpret, there would not be any need for a protest appeals committee.

Define "structure".

Define "generally available".

You have shown a bias since last February. I got some things wrong, said so here and on the Solstice forum, apologized, committed to reading the rules carefully since then, and have done so. And you won't get over it. DILIGAF.

SpyderVenom:

snaponbob:

Ahhhh what the hell. With 64 cars in A/Stock, I could rebuild the engine between runs!!!! Almost. So, if I really felt compelled to adjust the rears, I should be able to figure out something!!

We will likely get our own heat or be grouped with another smallish class.  So that will only be about 15-20 minutes between runs. 

Come on, Rob. You can't even detect some light hearted sarcasm. I don't care how long it is between runs. I'll just park my uncommitted ass in my car and do the best I can.

snaponbob:

SpyderVenom:

snaponbob:

Ahhhh what the hell. With 64 cars in A/Stock, I could rebuild the engine between runs!!!! Almost. So, if I really felt compelled to adjust the rears, I should be able to figure out something!!

We will likely get our own heat or be grouped with another smallish class.  So that will only be about 15-20 minutes between runs. 

Come on, Rob. You can't even detect some light hearted sarcasm. I don't care how long it is between runs. I'll just park my uncommitted ass in my car and do the best I can.

I'm actually trying to be helpful as I have been since you made the commitment to go to Nationals.  You are the one holding the grudge at this point, not me. 

snaponbob:

Define "structure".

Define "generally available".

You have shown a bias since last February. I got some things wrong, said so here and on the Solstice forum, apologized, committed to reading the rules carefully since then, and have done so. And you won't get over it. DILIGAF.

Structure: part of a load bearing assembly. 

Generally Available: A reasonable number of units available to people who want them at a reasonable price in a reasonable time frame pending abnormal situations such as backorders, processing screw-ups, etc. 

It seems like you GAF and lately I have taken the time to explain some things to you.  But like I said in the post above, you are the one who keeps coming back are referring to the frustrations we've had - not me.  So either you GAF and pay attention to what people are telling you, or you don't GAF and ignore those people who are trying to help you. 

SpyderVenom:

snaponbob:

SpyderVenom:

snaponbob:

Ahhhh what the hell. With 64 cars in A/Stock, I could rebuild the engine between runs!!!! Almost. So, if I really felt compelled to adjust the rears, I should be able to figure out something!!

We will likely get our own heat or be grouped with another smallish class.  So that will only be about 15-20 minutes between runs. 

Come on, Rob. You can't even detect some light hearted sarcasm. I don't care how long it is between runs. I'll just park my uncommitted ass in my car and do the best I can.

I'm actually trying to be helpful as I have been since you made the commitment to go to Nationals.  You are the one holding the grudge at this point, not me. 

I have just returned from the back yard. There is a marker where the hatchet is buried.

SpyderVenom:

snaponbob:

Define "structure".

Define "generally available".

You have shown a bias since last February. I got some things wrong, said so here and on the Solstice forum, apologized, committed to reading the rules carefully since then, and have done so. And you won't get over it. DILIGAF.

Structure: part of a load bearing assembly. 

Generally Available: A reasonable number of units available to people who want them at a reasonable price in a reasonable time frame pending abnormal situations such as backorders, processing screw-ups, etc. 

It seems like you GAF and lately I have taken the time to explain some things to you.  But like I said in the post above, you are the one who keeps coming back are referring to the frustrations we've had - not me.  So either you GAF and pay attention to what people are telling you, or you don't GAF and ignore those people who are trying to help you. 

The definitions I would like to see (and all should see within the rules) would be those from the SCCA. Really, I do know what a structure is. But in the sense of a car, structures serve different purposes. On the Kappas the body can be removed and the car can still driven around. Not so on a uni-body car such as a Civic, Miata, etc. Now I am the one that is hair splitting. (As I become more follicly challenged that may not be wise!)  It just seems inequitable that holes can be punched for a reservoir (and it's adjusting feature), but not for access to an adjuster on top of the shock.

"Generally available" is SO much more complex. Some say that means that one can actually OBTAIN the item, some say being able to ORDER the item. There is truly a significant difference. In the case of the Z0KT parts ol' Joe Carnut could "ORDER" the parts, but if he or the dealership didn't know how to actually expedite those items it could be quarter past Christmas before they might start seeing the parts. Example - I ordered my Koni SA's oh so many months ago (about when Miles left Tire Rack). They just got into the USA 8-10 days ago. Prior to last week THEY WERE NOT AVAILABLE, but they were orderable for a future unknown delivery date.

Again, my whole premise for my position is the wording that SCCA uses. It's simply not specific enough. And in the case of the Peru dust up and subsequent decisions their wording was no less clear. Actually, I do care about having a rule set that HELPS the sport grow. But I am not alone in the frustration felt by how the rules are written and enforced. If SCCA road racing sees a car/option/whatever as illegal and SCCA Solo does not, then SCCA should take another look at how the rules are written. (Admittedly, that IS an over simplification, but the idea is correct.) And in that light, I will now edit my earlier post about installing the shocks.

snaponbob:

But I have NEVER met ANYBODY that considered the trunk floor of a car to be an exterior part of the car.

 Are you not talking about the metal panel that separates the trunk space from the air under the car?  If you're talking about a lining or partition that is fully inside the trunk, that would be a candidate for holes.
 

snaponbob:

Again, my whole premise for my position is the wording that SCCA uses. It's simply not specific enough. And in the case of the Peru dust up and subsequent decisions their wording was no less clear. Actually, I do care about having a rule set that HELPS the sport grow. But I am not alone in the frustration felt by how the rules are written and enforced. If SCCA road racing sees a car/option/whatever as illegal and SCCA Solo does not, then SCCA should take another look at how the rules are written. (Admittedly, that IS an over simplification, but the idea is correct.) And in that light, I will now edit my earlier post about installing the shocks.

SCCA Club Racing and SCCA Solo are completely different racing entities with different participants and different rule directions.  Club Racing is trying to make parity within the rule structures for different cars by allowing truck kits, wheels, weights, restrictors, etc.  Solo Rules are not trying to create car parity, they lay out the rules and allow the best cars to bubble to the top.  Talking to an SAC member, the GXP was classed knowing that a Z0K suspension package was possible for the car in the next couple of years - it made sense since there was already one for the NA version when the GXP was classed.  This may have figured into the discussion when allowing the '07 GXPs to upgrade.

The Sport grows at the local level.  I saw that first hand this weekend.  At the PA States, a lot of very competitive drivers showed up to what basically amounted to two local events over two days.  Classes were won by as much as 30 seconds over two days.  Classes where the regional competitors were competitive locally, the gap may have only been 7 seconds.  There were a lot of local competitors who were left stunned and some who were so demoralized they had no incentive to come back - and said so.  The rulebook has nothing to do with this.  It's up to the local region to figure out how to keep these people coming back either through "Novice" or "Pro" classes (which aren't in the rulebook).   

Orthonormal:

snaponbob:

But I have NEVER met ANYBODY that considered the trunk floor of a car to be an exterior part of the car.

It is on most of the cars I have seen underneath.  I can slide my arm under the rear of the car and tap on the trunk floor with my fingers.  That clearly makes it an exterior panel.  Many trailer hitches mount to the trunk floor (bad idea, but it's done).  If drilling a hole in the panel would allow water inside the car, it's definitely exterior.

 Are you not talking about the metal panel that separates the trunk space from the air under the car?  If you're talking about a lining or partition that is fully inside the trunk, that would be a candidate for holes.
 

I can see where a truck area OUTSIDE of rear passenger bulkhead could be considered "exterior". But the "line" sort of starts getting murky if one were to be talking about a "hatchback" style are where the "interior" usually goes all the way back to sheetmetal at the rear bumper. Here we find ourselves at the intent/letter devide. Yes, I know that there are no Kappa hatchbacks, but I think there are cars that are both styles. Why should there be a difference in application? And what of my example earlier about remote reservoirs? I will grant you that a trunk floor is an exterior panel, and the more I re-read the rule book, the more I see how extensively "exterior" may defined. So either reservoirs need to be exterior, or access should be granted to adjusters.

snaponbob:

I can see where a truck area OUTSIDE of rear passenger bulkhead could be considered "exterior". But the "line" sort of starts getting murky if one were to be talking about a "hatchback" style are where the "interior" usually goes all the way back to sheetmetal at the rear bumper. Here we find ourselves at the intent/letter devide.

The rule about reservoirs is a separate rule, and aesthetically I don't really like the idea of drilling holes in exterior panels to route reservoir hoses to the interior. It makes installing and removing the shocks much more complicated, and it isn't necessary in most instances.  It's also not easily reversible (you can't un-drill a hole).  I'd like the allowance to go away.  However, some people have already made use of the allowance.  There seems to be a strong sentiment in the Solo program that "take backs are bad".  So it would be difficult to take away that allowance, but I really don't like the idea of expanding other allowances to match.