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Andy Hollis:

PS: Get used to getting sniped by Ramey since you'll be in the same class, in the same half of the country.   

My whole auto-x career has been about getting sniped.  I'm used to it. 

-Steve

Andy Hollis:

Thanks for the better answer, Steve.  Ted's claim took none of that into consideration.  He just said essentially, more power = domination.  And there is a LOT more to classing than that.  But people always get fixated on it.

--Andy

Hey, WTF Andy?  I didn't bring up the C6Z vs. C5Z, you did. My only point is that you're adding more power to an already proven class winner.  And that could make it a class killer.  The C6Z is a totally different car than the C5Z.  But I forgive you...Where's the tin foil??

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Ted

2004 Z16/Z06 SS

Andy Hollis:

TedDBere:

Because we're talking about a 20% increase in horsepower in a car that has already demonstrated that it can win the class. 

That same statement could be said about the C6 Z06 vs the C5 Z06.  Certainly the latter has demonstrated it can win, and what's the C5->C6 horsepower increase again?  

--Andy

 

 

Andy, that is not even remotely comparable, and you know it.

To cover the obvious basics here, again, the C5 Z06 isn't helped much by more power as it cannot effectively use it. The C6Z is basically a wider C5 with huge power and tall gears. The Elise is somewhat power limited and can use every bit it gets.

 

Edit*

I knew I should have read the rest of the thread before answering Andy's pot-stirring, as it seems Steve already covered this pretty well.....
 

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Gary T

I drive a N/A exige in SS and I can tell you that a S/C version will have an increase of torque that will cover the car's one current downfall and make it much less course dependent. I don't think that all of superstock will be dominated by the car, but it will definitely cause those of us who have an N/A Lotus to think twice about competing in SS.

Oh, and it is not the HP that matters, it is the addition of torque across the range of engine speeds. Especially, the lower RPM where you might come off of a slower corner off of the cam in an N/A Lotus. 

Here is why I think the 2008 Lotus Elise SC (it is not named "Elise S") is currently legal in Super Stock...

The listing in the 2008 SCCA National Solo Rules has "Lotus Elise ('05+)" which means all Elise's 2005 and newer apply.  This is just like the "Chevrolet Corvette C5 ('97+)" entry includes all C5 models from 1997 and up, including the Coupe, Convertible and Z06 models (where of course the Z06 has a different engine than other C5's).  The Exige with the supercharger is not legal since the Exige listing in the rules for SS specifically has "N/A" (Normally aspirated).

When the 2006 Corvette C6 Z06 was released, the SEB put it on the stock exclusion list which was required to not be automatically classed into Super Stock based on the existing "Corvette C6 ('05+)" listing.  Since the Elise SC is not on the exclusion list (according to the 2008 rule book and the Fastracks from September 2007 - March 2008), it is automatically classed under the previous listing, just like all other new cars where a matching listing exists.

For the 2007 rules, the C6 Z06 was classed in Super Stock by moving the C6 Z06 text from the exclusion list to Super Stock, but really, the removal of the C6 Z06 from the exclusion list would have been enough to class it into Super Stock under the existing "Corvette C6 ('05+)" listing.  This was probably done to make it VERY clear that it was moved.  Although, at this point, this redundant listing should be removed in the rule book along with cleaning up a bunch of other redundant entries in the class listings.

A reasonable assumption based on no action by the SEB to add an Elise SC stock exclusions listing to the rule book is that they are taking a wait and see attitude where the Elise SC is classed as of January 1, 2008 under the existing SS listing and have 12 months to decide to change the rules for new cars.

Matthew.

Can the SEB  add the Elise SC to the exclusion list anytime throughout 2008 in the Fasttrack?

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www.jjsons.com

matthewb:

Here is why I think the 2008 Lotus Elise SC (it is not named "Elise S") is currently legal in Super Stock...

The listing in the 2008 SCCA National Solo Rules has "Lotus Elise ('05+)" which means all Elise's 2005 and newer apply.  This is just like the "Chevrolet Corvette C5 ('97+)" entry includes all C5 models from 1997 and up, including the Coupe, Convertible and Z06 models (where of course the Z06 has a different engine than other C5's).  The Exige with the supercharger is not legal since the Exige listing in the rules for SS specifically has "N/A" (Normally aspirated).


Matthew.

I totally agree with your interpretation that the Elise SC could fit under the current listings as a new option on the Elise line.  I also think if it's felt to be a new car, instead of an option, it currently falls under the "new" car, unclassed and not excluded rule, placing it into SS.  However, the 12 month rule gives the SEB time to correct oversights and they do not need to wait 12 months to make a determination.

The Elise and the Exige are considered comparable cars based on their performance characteristics and the Exige S was placed into ASP while the N/A Exige remains in SS.  I would think that the Elise SC would follow the Exige S to ASP based on the similar performance characteristics and view the lack of a ruling as an oversight, not intent.  If it was intended then it was not fair to Exige S owners to put them into ASP and allow the Elise SC into SS.  IMHO

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Ted

2004 Z16/Z06 SS

1) I don't know about rules

2) The Elise SC is a NEW MODEL IMHO--(ok----so the fronts are 1/2" narrower and the rears 1/2" wider)

3)  Lotus doesn't introduce some of their variations much ahead of time.........Dec 07 Lotus US Press Release-----"Over a pint of ale, and just for the heck of it we here at Lotus Cars Inc. have decided to slap together a new SC model-----

"Lotus where our motto is-----by the time your grass is cut again----we will have announced a new model.  Produced that model.  And caused our current base of customers to take a rather large depreciation hit."

"Lotus------we add lightness----TO YOUR WALLET !"

PS--we here at Lotus recommend you buy our cars now, as the world wide financial market collapse is currently underway, and our Economic geniuses at Oxford estimate that your dollars won't be worth spit in about 2 months.  Cheerio. 

4)  Matthew, you pulling a STEWART, and entering a car that you ain't got ?  (I know just to stir debate).

5)  Do you really want the SC in SS, because if you do you will probably make the BSP debate look like chicken feed next to the new SS debate.

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Trying to get faster

Ryno:

Can the SEB  add the Elise SC to the exclusion list anytime throughout 2008 in the Fasttrack?

Any model car considered to be "new" by the SEB can be classed at any time.  That said, if the classing comes after the publication of the July FastTrack, the car cannot be run in that class at Nats for that year.

I suspect that this issue will be settled by the SEB in short order, so any additional interweb pontificating will just be conjecture and posturing.  Not that there is anything wrong with that, mind you. 

--Andy

 

Nothing in the April Fastrack....hmmmmmmmmmm????

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Ted

2004 Z16/Z06 SS

Well, if I had known that a SC lotus would go into ASP or SS, I probably would not have bothered this year.  That car is a dramatic favorite in either class on any course you will ever see.  Or just win SM2, or XP.  You pick it until someone comes up with a real miata effort for those classes (it is narrower than the lotus and probably a tad more tunable in the handling dpt)

I still have no desire whatsoever to own or drive one. 

I would argue against its legality in SS along the lines of what has been thrashed here out of pure self interest.  If Matt gets to run it, I'll still come out and play, but that will get ugly, cause it's pretty hard to out drive Matt by 1 second plus, which I bet will be the minimum handicap.  I would put my money on a top caliber driver in a standard elise on almost any course against any of the other contenders.  Add a big fat  area under the  torque curve to it and its all over.
 

 

 

 

 

An SC Lotus in already in ASP----Exige S, and a Elise with the Exige S supercharger junk.

 

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Trying to get faster

A "model", according to 12.3:

A group of cars of a given make which have virtually indentical bodies and chassis but area readily distinguished from other models of the same make by virtue of a major difference in body appearance and/or chassis design. The names by which the manufacturer designates these groups have no bearing on this definition even though two groups may be designated identically.

 So...Is this a new model?

FM

Fastmike:

A "model", according to 12.3:

A group of cars of a given make which have virtually indentical bodies and chassis but area readily distinguished from other models of the same make by virtue of a major difference in body appearance and/or chassis design. The names by which the manufacturer designates these groups have no bearing on this definition even though two groups may be designated identically.

 So...Is this a new model?

FM

That definition is not the be-all, end-all.

Oftentimes the same car model is split into two different classes based on some significant option package.  For example, 8-cyl F-bodies and 6-cylinder F-bodies would fit that definition of "same model" but they are in two classes based on engine (which is an option package).  And since the SEB cannot forsee all new possible option packages, they have the right to class a new package where they see fit, when it comes into being. 

That doesn't answer your question, but it does cut down on how important the answer is.  In the end, the SEB can (and likely will) class the car where it wants it.

--Andy

 

David Lehman:

An SC Lotus in already in ASP----Exige S, and a Elise with the Exige S supercharger junk. 

Note that the Exige S comes with an Eaton MP62 supercharger and an intercooler.  Whereas the Elise SC comes with an Eaton MP45 supercharger (smaller) and no intercooler.  They are not identical in that respect.  But both will have a nicer middle than the NA car. 

 

Re: Late model (2005+) Cayman and Boxster in AS. Why would the Cayman be better? Torsional rigidity of the platform?

Anyone think either could win at a National level?

I just looked at a 2006 Boxster, 5 spd, pretty low option car with 12,400 miles...$32,000, with room to negotiate. I'm not ready to pull the trigger, until my current car goes back to Mazda, but something like that could be a heck of a daily driver/autocross car with most of the depreciation out of it and lots of warranty left....I know there's no reason to really expect the later cars to be any quicker than the earlier S model, but still am wishing...nice car, but I guess there's just not enough alignment to really make it work

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In slow, out fast.
In fast, out backwards.

You can update SS and allow the newest bestest cars a place to play in stock or........make a class "above" SS to allow the cars that are stock but have been deemed not good(too good?) for SS for whatever reason(s). And I DON'T mean ASP either. That is way beyond stock allowances.

I think you can't hold SS to the current cars forever or you need to make places other than ASP for the other cars to play.

Would you have 50 car lineups? Who knows...many said that SS would wilt on the vine when the price went high but I guess not huh?

FM

Fastmike:

Would you have 50 car lineups? Who knows...many said that SS would wilt on the vine when the price went high but I guess not huh?

Do we know that?  Majority of the class is still made up of cars that cost $30k.

Dave G. 

How many "normal" C5 Vettes were obsoleted when the Z06 came along?

Dick

talon95:

Do we know that?  Majority of the class is still made up of cars that cost $30k.

Dave G. 

You keep bringing that same point up but it's not valid.

Sure, that's what a Z06 costs now.  But it did not when it was new, and the SS field was quite full at that time.

Just because *you* did not buy one until the price came down does not mean others would/did not.  Should SS be the new ES, where the price of entry has to be low before a car can go there?  I think not.

At some point, new cars will have to be let in.  That said, there are plenty of examples when certain overdogs were excluded straight to ASP to allow the status quo to exist for a little longer.  Then, when other manufacturers caught up and some real competition could exist, all were invited to the party. 

Note that this situation is unique to SS, since it is the fastest Stock class.  More classes isn't the answer to everything. 

--Andy