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TedDBere:

Letting the Elise S in to SS would have the same effect of letting a turbo of any of the top four cars into the class, imagine the effect of a GT2, Turbo C5Z, or a turbo Viper to the class.  Just a little upsetting to the members already in the class.

Sooper-dooper stock would be a fun class one day, but for the time being the present SS class has a pretty epic mix of 3-4 different really fast cars and some of the biggest/most talented fields Solo has ever seen.

 Turbo Z06 or Viper, ha!  Yep, that's all we need at HPT, a ton more power and a bunch more weight over the nose.

Hopefully for 2009 the powers that be can find us a venue less reminiscent of banana peels.

I"ve always liked super duper stock....something rediculous for entertainment more than anything.  F430s GT2s Carrera GTs  F50s new gt3 exige and exige S elise 340R if it ever came here....and so on.

Maybe make it a supp class to ASP but given their own trophies or whatever till they make 15 cars. 

I also think that SuperduperStock could be a viable class.

Let the new ACR VIper and Ford GT in too!
I know an autox couple(Nat champions both) that is looking at getting one of those or a Superleggara which they both said was a pushy pig but that probably could be tuned out.

Race tires for some of the new cars is going to be tough though. Seems people think 20's are the way to roll...

FM

Andy Hollis:

My prediction:  Over the next couple of years the C6 Z06 will be developed to be better than the C5 Z06 (by someone with lotsa cash).  At that point, both the "new" GT3 and the Elise S will join it in SS for a fair fight.

--Andy

 

and the class will be dead... 

Davebs14:

I"ve always liked super duper stock....something rediculous for entertainment more than anything.  F430s GT2s Carrera GTs  F50s new gt3 exige and exige S elise 340R if it ever came here....and so on.

Most of those are legal in ASP now and we only see a handful of those exotics all year

What makes you think you'd see any more of them by having a Stock class for them?

Most owners of exotics could care less about "parking lot racing". 

--Andy 

BSPC5:

 Sounds like a great idea.....might as well put in the F430 and Gallardo Superleggera too at that point.
 

I didn't say it was a good idea.

I just said that's what I think will happen, since the C6 Z06 is already there.  I just don't think we have yet seen what the C6 can do when fully developed.  And once we do, if it is way faster (I could be wrong!), other moves will happen in an attempt to keep some of the diversity.

--Andy

PS: FM: I wouldn't call the Superlegerra a "pushy pig".  Not in the least.  I've had some quality on-track time in that car.  It's a really, really good car. And then there's the new LP560/4...

talon95:

Andy Hollis:

My prediction:  Over the next couple of years the C6 Z06 will be developed to be better than the C5 Z06 (by someone with lotsa cash).  At that point, both the "new" GT3 and the Elise S will join it in SS for a fair fight.

--Andy

 

and the class will be dead... 

I agree.  Most agree that the GT3 is the car to have in ProSolo SS and how many of them do we see flocking to participate this year???...One.  I'd wager that if the $$ GT3 weren't in SS you'd see more drivers flocking to the new $30k SS class, because the cars are a blast to drive and are becoming reasonable to own.  Why even risk killing the class for a couple of members when it could have become one of the largest?

The top car in a stock class should be obtainable for the members who want to run in that class, IMHO.  I'd rather see a class between SS and AS than an expensive XS class with 4 nationally prepped cars in it across the nation.

TedDBere:

I'd rather see a class between SS and AS than an expensive XS class with 4 nationally prepped cars in it across the nation.

I wholeheartedly agree. 

TedDBere:

[

The top car in a stock class should be obtainable for the members who want to run in that class, IMHO.

Define "obtainable", please.

I remember this exact same discussion back when the C5 Z06 first came out.  Horrific cries over the "exorbitant" list price of that car.  Yet, participation in SS continued to rise that year (and since then). 

This "wave effect" happens all the time.  A new car comes into SS and eventually dominates.  Said car, as a new uber-performance vehicle, commands a premium for purchase, yet the participants line up to buy.  After a couple of years, the cars start to become more affordable via the used market and more "second-tier" buyers come in that can now afford the price.  People get used to that as the cost of entry.  Then, we go back to the beginning of the cycle and there is much moaning and "Sky is Falling".

This same scenario has played out in Super-Stock for years and years.  First, it was the C4 (which created SS), then the RX7TT, then the "normal" C5 followed by the C5 Z06, then the GT3 came in and now the C6 Z06.  My experience says SS will always be popular despite it's cost.  Yes, it will shed some "second-tier" purchasers on the upside of each wave, but it always seems to back-fill and grow.

BTW, I still think we have about two years left for the current mix to play out. 

--Andy

PS: "Second-tier" is not any judgement on driving/prep talent, just a marker on purchasing power versus the value proposition (i.e. How much can I spend before my wife kills me?). 

Andy Hollis:

BSPC5:

 Sounds like a great idea.....might as well put in the F430 and Gallardo Superleggera too at that point.
 

I didn't say it was a good idea.

I just said that's what I think will happen, since the C6 Z06 is already there.  I just don't think we have yet seen what the C6 can do when fully developed.  And once we do, if it is way faster (I could be wrong!), other moves will happen in an attempt to keep some of the diversity.

--Andy

PS: FM: I wouldn't call the Superlegerra a "pushy pig".  Not in the least.  I've had some quality on-track time in that car.  It's a really, really good car. And then there's the new LP560/4...

 

Just repeating what they told me. They didn't track it but did a small autocross type of thing for a small group of people. I don't think the cars were setup hence my statement about tuning the push out. Or maybe the dealership purposely put some toe-in for the test day?

They want to run in stock class. People don't like to have run against cars that get to modify WAY beyond how they come from the factory. That likely is one of the reasons that you don't see the cars in ASP.

When I said SuperDuperStock I mean't a class above the current SS not a class to replace the current SS class.

FM

while I think Super duper stock is entertaining.......that is a more logical idea ;)

I'd go for that.....seeing as how there are a lot of SS cars that would be fun to drive but still tooooo fast for AS kinda like the S2k and GXP  ;) 

John V:

TedDBere:

I'd rather see a class between SS and AS than an expensive XS class with 4 nationally prepped cars in it across the nation.

I wholeheartedly agree. 

 

TedDBere:

you'd see more drivers flocking to the new $30k AS class, because the cars are a blast to drive and are reasonable to own. 

Fixed that for you.

You guys REALLY need to leave AS alone for a few years right now.  There are plenty of cars that are competitive and it's bringing in new drivers without much loss of the older drivers.  There is a wide variety of affordable cars that people want to own.  It's currently the largest class in both the DC and Atlanta Pros. 

Andy Hollis:

TedDBere:

[

The top car in a stock class should be obtainable for the members who want to run in that class, IMHO.

Define "obtainable", please.

BTW, I still think we have about two years left for the current mix to play out. 

--Andy

Sort of like ponography, hard to define but you know it when you see it.

Let's look at the SS vehicles that most experienced SS drivers feel can win SS.  GT3, Elise, C5Z, C6Z, Viper. 

Let's looks at aprox. current prices (used): GT3 - $70k, Elise - $30k, C5Z - $30k, C6Z - $60k, Viper - $75k

Let's look at how many cars showed up at Nationals last year (cars, not drivers): GT3 - 4, Elise - 10,  C5Z - 19, C6Z - 2, Viper - 1

We had 68 entrants in SS at nationals last year. The majority of member cars (29 out of 36)  were "obtainable" in the $30-40k range.  I don't see the GT3s, C6Zs and Vipers coming down to the 30-40k range anytime soon.  So my estimate would be that for an SS car to be obtainable for the SS membership it should be no more than 50-60k new.  IMHO.

SpyderVenom:

TedDBere:

you'd see more drivers flocking to the new $30k AS class, because the cars are a blast to drive and are reasonable to own. 

Fixed that for you.

You guys REALLY need to leave AS alone for a few years right now.  There are plenty of cars that are competitive and it's bringing in new drivers without much loss of the older drivers.  There is a wide variety of affordable cars that people want to own.  It's currently the largest class in both the DC and Atlanta Pros. 

 ... and probably one of the largest at Toledo, and the second biggest class at nationals last year.

I know a lot of top AS guys from 2007 have left for greener pastures but so far the class looks healthy.

I'm not sure if I agree the C6Z will prove to be a lot faster or not.  You'll have to drive it in 1st gear since 2nd is too long and bogs on slower corners (relative to the C5Z).  At autox speeds, the C6Z really is never better in 2nd gear.  Admittedly, on the right course (where a lot of 1-2 2-1 shifting isn't required) with someone that can hang on to the car in 1st, it could be faster.

As far as SS goes, I just can't see it being filled by even C6Z's any time soon.  They're old news and expensive.  People aren't going to jump on them like they did with the C5Z.  The C5Z was a huge jump over the C4 and was popular for a lot of reasons other than people wanting them for a Solo car.  The C6Z is a good car, but only an incremental improvement for a very big increase in cost.  It also has the gearing problem which won't work for most people (since most would struggle to drive it in 1st).

Then there are the GT3 and s/c'ed Elise.  No chance of those cars filling the class.

Dave G. 

TedDBere:

[

We had 68 entrants in SS at nationals last year. The majority of member cars (29 out of 36)  were "obtainable" in the $30-40k range.

By your definition, and adjusted for inflation, SS cars would not have been "obtainable" in 1994 (Viper), 1995-96 (RX7TT), 2000 (C5 base), 2001-2002 (C5 Z06).

I don't recall a dip in SS participation during those times.  Whining, I do recall.  Especially when the Viper came in.  So much so that it was banished for a number of years to the exclusion list.  Oh, the heresey when a Corvette did not win SS...

--Andy

PS: To the comments of "leave xx class alone for awhile", I say this:  we can't control the level of new better cars from the manufacturers or our members' desires to own/race these, so things much continue to change to keep up.  Sure, vested interest must always be managed versus future value, but we cannot blindly just ignore new cars in the interests of status quo.  

Andy Hollis:

PS: To the comments of "leave xx class alone for awhile", I say this:  we can't control the level of new better cars from the manufacturers or our members' desires to own/race these, so things much continue to change to keep up.  Sure, vested interest must always be managed versus future value, but we cannot blindly just ignore new cars in the interests of status quo.  

Understood but my post was more directed at the calls for a new class between SS and AS where presumabily the top cars in AS would be religated to also ran status against some of the current also rans in SS. 

Andy Hollis:

PS: To the comments of "leave xx class alone for awhile", I say this:  we can't control the level of new better cars from the manufacturers or our members' desires to own/race these, so things much continue to change to keep up.  Sure, vested interest must always be managed versus future value, but we cannot blindly just ignore new cars in the interests of status quo.  

 

Yes, but cars continue to be classed with no regard to whether the membership wants to race them or not.  Look no further than the Solstice in CS for that.  The SEB put it in CS even though the entire class was pretty much opposed to it.  One year later, CS was pretty much dead.  Now we're trying to fix this dead class with a never produced Miata.

Dave G. 

Prices are going up across all classes, except for the ones where Solo II has purposely made ten year old plus cars overdogs (like ES). CS used to be a $6-8,000 class, now it's $25k to play. BS has been a class where any old RX8 ($14-16,000 used) was THE car, now we're bringing in the $40k Nismo (which looks awesome, on paper) and the new '09 RX8 at $30k or so. AS still can be won in a C4, but the other favorites (GXP, CS S2000) are $30k plus. GS and HS are $15k plus, if you start with a used Mini...the list goes on...and don't even get started on the street prepared classes

It's just reflective of the consumers current interest in performance cars and the manufacturers willingness to bring new, fun stuff to the table, stuff that is significantly better than the proceeding models...which need to be fit into the Solo II stock classing structure...and which also cost more than used cars, particularly with the coincident "need" for all the electronic bells and whistles in these new models.

Still, I agree that, in terms of classing, something has to give, or we end up with more classes or current, popular cars obsoleted. It's a philosophical question, I guess, but I can't see any upside in alienating the newer models, as that's where the growth of Solo II ultimately is going to come from...

Andy Hollis:

TedDBere:

[

We had 68 entrants in SS at nationals last year. The majority of member cars (29 out of 36)  were "obtainable" in the $30-40k range.

By your definition, and adjusted for inflation, SS cars would not have been "obtainable" in 1994 (Viper), 1995-96 (RX7TT), 2000 (C5 base), 2001-2002 (C5 Z06).

Andy, I think you might have missed the rest of my statement:

"So my estimate would be that for an SS car to be obtainable for the SS membership it should be no more than 50-60k new."

That would have included all the cars mentioned except the Viper.