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Banannie:

CHRISFP78:

Look, this idea of splitting up the cars seems  like a good idea on the surface but let's be honest. There are verv few people running these cars now. I don't think that anyone who is "national champion caliber" is running them now. If the class is created, which I think it should be, than people interested in the class are going to have to go out and buy the cars. I think most  people are going to go for the C6 Z51 Corvette as the first choice because they are cheap relative to the rest of the cars and have the most hp-torque. There may be a couple of people that go out and get a Cayman S and ultimatly it could be the winner, but it's gonna be a corvette class IMO . And I don't think there is anything wrong with it ending up that way.

 

I'm one of the oddballs that would love this class.  I now have a Cayman S Sport which is absolutely a hoot to drive, and I'd be lying if I didn't say a small part of the reason I picked it up a few weeks ago was because of the initial support of this proposal...  and I've had a few national champion type folks up here in the Northwest Region already indicate their interest in codriving if all this goes through :)

Annie Bauer

I hear you. Im in the same boat with my GT3. It cost a lot more than the Corvette but it is so much more fun to autocross than the Corvette IMO. And the German car reliability cant be over looked. I have had the car three years and, knock on wood, it has been the most reliable autocross car I have ever owned. There has to be some value in that I guess.

I do hope the new AS does happen because it has the potential to be as successful as the current SS.

As for splitting the Boxter into 3 groups, forget about it. When my car is ten years old it will belong to someone else or be an ASP car. Stock has always been about the new cars.

Chris

CHRISFP78:

Stock has always been about the new cars.

Chris

Honestly, that's the shame in it.... stock really should be about the drivers, not who can afford a new car and then get someone to co-drive it!

Banannie:

I'm one of the oddballs that would love this class.  I now have a Cayman S Sport which is absolutely a hoot to drive, and I'd be lying if I didn't say a small part of the reason I picked it up a few weeks ago was because of the initial support of this proposal...  and I've had a few national champion type folks up here in the Northwest Region already indicate their interest in codriving if all this goes through :)

Annie Bauer

Annie - that means you'd have to keep a car for more than a year!  What # are you on since the Z06 you picked up around Nationals time? 

-Steve

SStrokerAce:

CHRISFP78:

Stock has always been about the new cars.

Chris

Honestly, that's the shame in it.... stock really should be about the drivers, not who can afford a new car and then get someone to co-drive it!

It is what it is. The best drivers are guilty for the  policy to some degree. They always choose the best tools  from the toolbox.

Chris

CHRISFP78:

 I think most  people are going to go for the C6 Z51 Corvette as the first choice because they are cheap relative to the rest of the cars and have the most hp-torque. There may be a couple of people that go out and get a Cayman S and ultimatly it could be the winner, but it's gonna be a corvette class IMO .

you mean C5, right?

Chris.....

Have fun driving STOCK in a Malibu, or a PRIUS.....

because those are the only "NEW" cars---that are going to be made......

ps....i HEARD hYUNDAI is bringing back their first car into the market---a new whatever the hell that car was

called......also RENUALT is bringing back the FUEGO (sp ?)--(worst car in the world...my wife had one)...

---------------------------

I hear these two cars above are being predicted by the SCCA to compose over 50 % of the stock classes in the national grid in 2012 and beyond........

and as a plus ----it goes hand in hand with the SCCA recruiting more AARP members......

SCCA is also rumored to be in negotiation with a new sponsor in 2012 to replace TIRERACK.......

SCCA PRO SOLO SERIES....

Sponsored...by Poli-Grip and Depends....

Poli keeps the teeth in and Depends keeps the urine in....when Autoxing---YEAH !

alvanderp:

00R101:

Its important to recognize the differences between the 986 (1997-2004) and the 987 (2005+). The 987 both S and Base have significantly more HP and torque than the equivalent 986 models. Really these 4 variants should be on 4 separate lines and here are my suggestions for classing within the new proposal and HP ranges

986 Boxster 1997-2004 (CS) (201-228hp)

986 Boxster S 2000-2004 (BS) (249-260hp)

987 Boxster/Cayman 2005+ (BS) (240-265hp)

987 Boxster S / Cayman S 2005+ (AS) (280-320hp)

Note that the '09 Caymans have 10 more hp than the '09 Boxsters

Question - are Porsche owners really chomping at the bit to run these cars so much that we need to find 3 separate classes for different iterations of one car?  We get a whopping 2-3 GT3's in SS even though its been good enough to win twice, there were all of 2 Boxter S's in the grid at Nats this year in AS, and one of those owners has ditched for something else.  Could the non-S 986 Boxters fit in the current BS?  Maybe, but is it worth risking upsetting the applecart to add a car that no one runs?  Especially considering the tire budget on the car will be immense?  I don't know about that...

EDIT:  Looks like Chris beat me to my point ;)

Can't speak for any other Boxster S owners but I got rid of mine because I didn't feel it was competitive in the class (except the occasional pro when I got lucky and the STi drivers slept at the light I suppose).  I also admit that it could have been a BS (current BS) overdog and doesn't belong there.  So it's buried.

The non-S 986 cars are not BS overdogs.  So will people run them in BS if they're moved?  Probably a couple.  But I don't buy into the "let's not class old cars competitively because they're old" routine.  To me, variety makes classes interesting.  And 986 non-S cars are CHEAP and tend to not be molested.  There are tons of them out there.  If they start to dominate you can always move them back.

The newer 987 non-S cars are a perfect fit for the existing AS.  Wish I had the money to buy and run one.

The '09+ 987 S could truly dominate the proposed "new AS" especially now that you can get them with a real diff.  Could make for an interesting class with the BMW MZ4.

Windscreen:

Banannie:

I'm one of the oddballs that would love this class.  I now have a Cayman S Sport which is absolutely a hoot to drive, and I'd be lying if I didn't say a small part of the reason I picked it up a few weeks ago was because of the initial support of this proposal...  and I've had a few national champion type folks up here in the Northwest Region already indicate their interest in codriving if all this goes through :)

Annie Bauer

Annie - that means you'd have to keep a car for more than a year!  What # are you on since the Z06 you picked up around Nationals time? 

-Steve

(checking list) Looks like the Cayman is #44 that I've owned  :)  And there's only been like 2 others since Nationals!  And it's not totally unheard of for me to keep a car more than a year - rare?  Yes.  Impossible?  Thankfully no  :)

CHRISFP78:

Stock has always been about the new cars.

SStrokerAce:

Honestly, that's the shame in it.... stock really should be about the drivers, not who can afford a new car and then get someone to co-drive it!

CHRISFP78:

It is what it is. The best drivers are guilty for the  policy to some degree. They always choose the best tools  from the toolbox.

Well it's lemming syndrome as far as I can tell. It also just adds price to the "cheapest" form of the sport and you basically take a nice new car and destroy it for a couple of years. I would much rather take a lower cost car to beat the snot out of and take less of a beating when the car does.

John V:

The non-S 986 cars are not BS overdogs.  So will people run them in BS if they're moved?  Probably a couple.  But I don't buy into the "let's not class old cars competitively because they're old" routine.  To me, variety makes classes interesting.  And 986 non-S cars are CHEAP and tend to not be molested.  There are tons of them out there.  If they start to dominate you can always move them back.

Ditto. Cheap competitive cars is what we as MEMBERS want, but strangely WE ARE NOT moving older cars that are less expensive! That doesn't make much sense to me in terms of what the membership wants. It really does make SCCA look elitist, where if you have money you should be able to win, screw talent you need both and this is a entry level sport! Let's face it the car is only half the battle here, tires, gas, driving schools are all not cheap and in terms of supporting OUR sport thats where we SHOULD spend the money, most likely the next 5-10 years is not going to provide us with new cheap cars we want to race. It's also not like there are a lot of circumstances where old cars CAN be competitive, let alone dominate but it doesn't seem like any chances are taken to move them around and see. Once a car is sunk, it's sunk and the owners are religated to have them in move to SP where they are also sunk.

Go back and look at some great handling cars that would be PERFECT for doing Solo in cheaply.... BMW E36 M3, Porsche 944 or the standard Boxters.... these cars are MIA in ANY classes and they are cheap, fun secondary cars to own. Honestly I have had my SS for years and I love the car but I wouldn't drive and enjoy it near as much if it wasn't used for autoX duty 25-30 weekends out of the year.

Hell I'm still amazed that the SS was moved down from being sunk in AS to FS where it should have been for years. One reason why I'm on board with ideas like these, is because it doesn't prove to be a dominant car when it happens it just allows another less expensive option that is relatively competitive and at the same time allows me to race a car that teaches you what to do. Long list of good drivers who learned in a F-body. 

Bret

Hey !!  scumbag watch what your saying about the elderly, or i am moving the mini to ASP

David Lehman:

Chris.....

Have fun driving STOCK in a Malibu, or a PRIUS.....

because those are the only "NEW" cars---that are going to be made......

 

ps....i HEARD hYUNDAI is bringing back their first car into the market---a new whatever the hell that car was

called......also RENUALT is bringing back the FUEGO (sp ?)--(worst car in the world...my wife had one)...

---------------------------

I hear these two cars above are being predicted by the SCCA to compose over 50 % of the stock classes in the national grid in 2012 and beyond........

and as a plus ----it goes hand in hand with the SCCA recruiting more AARP members......

SCCA is also rumored to be in negotiation with a new sponsor in 2012 to replace TIRERACK.......

SCCA PRO SOLO SERIES....

Sponsored...by Poli-Grip and Depends....

Poli keeps the teeth in and Depends keeps the urine in....when Autoxing---YEAH !

Hey Larry---how you doing ?---you old fart.

You know I don't think of you as old.  Just a guy with frizzy gray hair.

I won't protest that Mini in ASP.

SStrokerAce, I wondered about even replying because your post reads like just a bit of a flame/bait, but if you are serious that costs are high:

a) autocross should not "destroy" your new cars. My miata, purchased new in '99 for stock class autocrossing, is still going strong.

b) most stock classes can be won nationally in a car cheaper than some of the ones you list (BS, CS, ES, DS, GS, HS.....). If SS isn't on that list, the proposed AS isn't on that list, and even the current AS *might* require a version of the S2K that is more expensive than an old boxster, that's hardly putting the sport out of reach of people -- as evidenced by strong participation numbers in SS & AS.

 If *your particular car* is a couple tenths off the pace, well... sorry. Most cars will inevitably be. And while the next decade is questionable, the last decade has certainly seen cars get faster, so yeah, many of the older ones are now off the pace. That's OK; just adds some excitement as we figure new cars out. I raced my '99 in stock long enough, thank you :).

-- Glenn 

geewiz:

SStrokerAce, I wondered about even replying because your post reads like just a bit of a flame/bait, but if you are serious that costs are high:

a) autocross should not "destroy" your new cars. My miata, purchased new in '99 for stock class autocrossing, is still going strong.

b) most stock classes can be won nationally in a car cheaper than some of the ones you list (BS, CS, ES, DS, GS, HS.....). If SS isn't on that list, the proposed AS isn't on that list, and even the current AS *might* require a version of the S2K that is more expensive than an old boxster, that's hardly putting the sport out of reach of people -- as evidenced by strong participation numbers in SS & AS.

 If *your particular car* is a couple tenths off the pace, well... sorry. Most cars will inevitably be. And while the next decade is questionable, the last decade has certainly seen cars get faster, so yeah, many of the older ones are now off the pace. That's OK; just adds some excitement as we figure new cars out. I raced my '99 in stock long enough, thank you :).

-- Glenn 

Maybe I see the "destruction more than most since I have a boat, but during the winter tear downs bushings, ball joints, tie rods and of course hubs do get a beating....

Maybe it's just me but I would rather spend the money on tires than car payments.....

John V:

The non-S 986 cars are not BS overdogs.  So will people run them in BS if they're moved?  Probably a couple.  But I don't buy into the "let's not class old cars competitively because they're old" routine.  To me, variety makes classes interesting.  And 986 non-S cars are CHEAP and tend to not be molested.  There are tons of them out there.  If they start to dominate you can always move them back.

That's obviously one opinion.  I personally think its 50/50 as to whether or not it could dominate the current BS.  Could we move it back if it does?  Sure, but at that point we have already disenfranchised everyone currently in the class.  My question is will enough people come run these cars to make it worth it, or do we take a step backwards in overall participation?  I don't disagree with the fact the car is cheap to get ahold of, and handles well out of the box(i.e. fun to drive), but I just don't see people lining up in droves to run them.  In other words, the risk/reward doesn't play out in my completely unofficial opinion ;)