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http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260198912962

Kind of large to be the ideal XP car - but definitely a fun way to shred lots of big, wide rubber. 

 -Steve

 p.s.  If I were trying to build the ultimate XP car, I'd probably start with something like this:

http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/carsforsale/lotus/super_seven/563229.html
 

I'd start with one of these...

http://www.lotus-europa.com/forsale.html

 

129STS:

I'd start with one of these...

http://www.lotus-europa.com/forsale.html

Also a good choice - although not much fun for anyone over 5'8" and/or 150lbs.

MNbiker:

129STS:

I'd start with one of these...

http://www.lotus-europa.com/forsale.html

Also a good choice - although not much fun for anyone over 5'8" and/or 150lbs.

Funny you mention that. I just bought a '69 S2 to prepare for XP. I'm 6'3" and 230 lbs with size 11.5 feet. Even with a helmet I fit just fine, but I did remove the seat and will have to make a poured foam seat for support.

Did you know that the firewall is made of a thin, soft sheet of pressboard?!? 

modernbeat:

Funny you mention that. I just bought a '69 S2 to prepare for XP. I'm 6'3" and 230 lbs with size 11.5 feet. Even with a helmet I fit just fine, but I did remove the seat and will have to make a poured foam seat for support.

Did you know that the firewall is made of a thin, soft sheet of pressboard?!? 

Interesting - I've been in a couple Europas, and felt really cramped in both.  However, I could see where removing the seat would make a big difference.  I  had actually decided against ever getting a Miata, until I drove one with a racing seat mounted close to the floor. 

Do you have any issues with the narrow pedal placement?  My feet are a bit wide, and I'd have to modify the stock footbox & pedal placement to drive one regularly.

Yeah, I've seen the stock firewalls - an aluminum replacement would be VERY high on my upgrade list. 

geewiz:

No need to *start* with a (an?) Europa and build an XP car. There's a mighty-fast rotary-powered XP Europa already built out here in northern california and I'm pretty sure the owner could be talked into selling it. It'd be a BARGAIN as a ready-to-race hella-fast XP ride. I'm not sure if the owner reads these boards....

You must be talking about Jesus Villarreal's car. There are some things I like about it, and some things I don't. It would be easy to fix some of the things I don't like, but I'd have to perform some bodywork and re-do the entire rear suspension. Jesus posts on the Europa Yahoo group.

Another highly prepared Europa owner emailed me through a friend regarding selling his autocross setup Europa when he heard I was embarking on an XP buildup, but his used a hotted up stock engine and transmission and bolt-on fixes for the rear suspension.

Regardless, I've got to sell the STS2 car and finish the DP Miata before I do much more work on the Europa.

PS: I intend to use a non-stock 4AGE which keeps the weight down to 1552 iirc. I'd guess that it will still require 200+ lbs of ballast.

geewiz:

Yes, I was referring to Jesus' car.

What sort of power would you be aiming for from a 1.6L normally-aspirated 4AGE (if I did those calculations correctly)?

1552 pounds sounds scary. Er, I hope you enjoy that DP car :-).

-- Glenn

On real gas a bone-stock 20v 4AGE should make 160 at the wheels. With 10" wheels the car should be 10" narrower than CSP Miatas with 275 Hoosiers. Now that my B-Mod (bike motored Lotus 7) is up and running I've considered parting out the unfinished DP car and diving straight into the XP Europa. 

modernbeat:

geewiz:

Yes, I was referring to Jesus' car.

What sort of power would you be aiming for from a 1.6L normally-aspirated 4AGE (if I did those calculations correctly)?

1552 pounds sounds scary. Er, I hope you enjoy that DP car :-).

-- Glenn

On real gas a bone-stock 20v 4AGE should make 160 at the wheels. With 10" wheels the car should be 10" narrower than CSP Miatas with 275 Hoosiers. Now that my B-Mod (bike motored Lotus 7) is up and running I've considered parting out the unfinished DP car and diving straight into the XP Europa. 

I'd assume you need a lot of rollcage to keep a Europa in 1 piece in XP trim...
 

129STS:

I'd assume you need a lot of rollcage to keep a Europa in 1 piece in XP trim...
 

The stock car started out at 1250 before the steel seat pans, steel wheels, steel hubs, steel coolant tubes and glass were removed. I think I've got enough weight-headroom to add whatever stiffening is required and keep it under the minimum.

modernbeat:

On real gas a bone-stock 20v 4AGE should make 160 at the wheels. 

 

A Blacktop?  Maybe.  From what I have seen the 20 valve 4age is not living up to the JDM hype.  150'ish is what I have seen.  Two things to remember about that motor; 1) its all top end.  2) there is no aftermarket support.   You won't make much torque with a 20 valve and if you want to make compression and upgrade camshafts, that will all be custom made parts.  

I think you can make as much or more power with a 16 valve large port with off the shelf parts.

modernbeat:

129STS:

I'd assume you need a lot of rollcage to keep a Europa in 1 piece in XP trim...
 

The stock car started out at 1250 before the steel seat pans, steel wheels, steel hubs, steel coolant tubes and glass were removed. I think I've got enough weight-headroom to add whatever stiffening is required and keep it under the minimum.

Well, when it's finally built, I'll just have to out-drive you. :) 

Steve Hoelscher:

A Blacktop?  Maybe.  From what I have seen the 20 valve 4age is not living up to the JDM hype.  150'ish is what I have seen.  Two things to remember about that motor; 1) its all top end.  2) there is no aftermarket support.   You won't make much torque with a 20 valve and if you want to make compression and upgrade camshafts, that will all be custom made parts.  

I think you can make as much or more power with a 16 valve large port with off the shelf parts.

On pump gas a Blacktop 20v is really hobbled. The intention is to stick in a stock Blacktop and ECU and run it on 104 octane while I figure out the chassis and my driving. If I can use more power, then a built 16v will be substituted.

Not completely sold on the 4AGE, but it certainly looks like the best contender right now.

It certainly seems like the XP weights are skewed towards the light end of the spectrum.   I don't see how a Viper would be competitive in the slightest once you can build a tiny car with good power that has a min wt. in the 1600lb range. 

I think SM2 weights still can favor the cars on the light end of the scale, and XP seems even "worse" from that perspective.  I'm curious why anyone would build anything other than something like a Europa.   I'm looking at EM as guidance for my thinking. 

I'd be tempted to take my RX7 down to the 2200lb range (can do that without a ton of difficulty) for XP, though min wt would be close to 19xx.  However, l think I would be praying a well prepped Europa in the 1500-1600 range not to show up.  Bob T. winning this year was more a statement of Bob driving well in a decent car than any kind of forecast as to what would be competitvie in the class long term, IMO.   

 -Andy M.

boxboy:

I'd be tempted to take my RX7 down to the 2200lb range (can do that without a ton of difficulty) for XP, though min wt would be close to 19xx.  However, l think I would be praying a well prepped Europa in the 1500-1600 range not to show up.  Bob T. winning this year was more a statement of Bob driving well in a decent car than any kind of forecast as to what would be competitvie in the class long term, IMO.    

 -Andy M.

 
Completely agreed.  I'm praying that you won't show up.  And you're praying the Europa doesn't show up. 

Looking at XP results is a very poor idea if you're trying to pick a car for the class.  When the fastest XP car is still over a half second slower than SM2 cars... it's useless data.  That said, XP is a really fun class, and I hope to get to run against the same group of people with the addition of new people into the class in '08.  If Bob can make it back, I told him that we'll try to make it a bit more of a challenge next year. :)

I do not have the math to support it, but I have seen it mentioned in other classes (SS) that HPT grip levels may mitigate the performance of the really light cars with moderate power.  Low grip would suggest low corner speeds, which then places a premium on good acceleration between features.  While the days of CP like 1G acceleration between corners is probably gone, being able to sustain .6 to .8G will probably still be a requirement for success. 

Trying to make up the ground anywhere I can... 

Stan, I think it just means the small displacement cars can get to the peak acceleration possible even easier.  They don't need as much power as they'd have on concrete.  Then if you factor in the size difference and how much easier they fit through everything on HPT courses which will be narrow and transitional due to site restrictions....I think you're going to need to make up alot of ground.  This isn't so obvious in SM2 where weights are so much higher, but in XP I don't think a big heavy car really has a chance, even taking into account "non-linear- the whole is greater than the sum of the parts" type thinking.  Two classes would be better with such a wide weight scale, though you'd need the numbers to support them.

 -Andy M.

boxboy:

Stan, I think it just means the small displacement cars can get to the peak acceleration possible even easier.  They don't need as much power as they'd have on concrete.  Then if you factor in the size difference and how much easier they fit through everything on HPT courses which will be narrow and transitional due to site restrictions....I think you're going to need to make up alot of ground.  This isn't so obvious in SM2 where weights are so much higher, but in XP I don't think a big heavy car really has a chance, even taking into account "non-linear- the whole is greater than the sum of the parts" type thinking.  Two classes would be better with such a wide weight scale, though you'd need the numbers to support them.

 -Andy M.

Can't we just ditch SM2? 

*ducking*